Landlord wants full notice even though selling property.

[gnomeathome]

Our landlord is selling the house we live in, he has given us until 31st August to move out. We have seen countless properties, put offers in etc but most are listed as 'available immediately' . We have lost out on 5 properties so far because we can't move immediately as we have a months notice to give. I have asked him if we can move within 2 weeks because of this issue and he said no, he wants the full months notice (or we would have to pay the difference in rent which we cannot afford to do).
We have had to have potential buyers looking at the house whilst we are still here and the landlord had the gall to say that we were making the house look small by being there whilst buyers and agents were coming around (we are a family). So could we 'pop out' during all viewings!

AIBU to think that not letting us leave early is just plain greedy? At this rate we wont find anywhere to move to that lines up perfectly to the eng of August. Do we legally have to give a months notice if they are the ones who have given us notice?

[quote KnobJockey]@Caffeinatedmonstergirl I also have a single second property that I rent out, similar situation to yours. I'm a good landlord. I also think you're being a fool about it. Think about it this way:
You want to sell your house
You want your tenant to leave so that you can complete a sale
The law says the tenant doesn't have to allow viewings
The law says the tenant doesn't have to leave at the end of a notice period
Lots of tenants when given notice either stop paying rent, or damage properties

Your tenant then offers to leave but only with 2 weeks notice instead of 4. You would be an absolute fool to turn that down for a few hundred pounds[/quote]
I think you are the fool 😂 Why would you assume that your tenant would be spiteful enough to cause problems if you insist on the full notice period you are legally entitled to?! You aren’t doing them a favour here, you both signed a contract and acknowledged that each needs to give a certain amount of notice in the event that the tenancy is ended for whatever reason. I accept that some tenants can be arseholes but I wouldn’t automatically deprive myself of two weeks of rent based on the expectation that they would either trash my property or not pay rent. I’ve never had these issues and have had a situation twice when I needed to sell for financial reasons and gave the tenant notice. Maybe I’ve been more discerning about the type of people I rent to?

Unless someone is extremely wealthy, the vast majority of landlords would not be happy about missing out on two weeks of rent. It also isn’t just about the rent, it’s about having sufficient time to find a new tenant. Two weeks is nothing and very often the new tenant isn’t able to move in immediately, meaning you could lose out on a month’s rent or more.

'It’s unfortunate that he wants to sell the property and the tenants will need to find alternative accommodation, but that’s life. One of the things you have to accept may happen when you rent.'

It's unfortunate [for the LL] that he wants to sell the property and the tenants are exercising their right to refuse viewings [assuming you do this, OP], but that's life. One of the things you have to accept may happen when you rent a property to someone.

Am rather at some of the appeals on here to the moral decency of the tenants when there is no moral decency coming the other way. Periods of vacancy are part of the risk of letting out a property, and it's unwise to rely on occupancy with no breaks at all for desperately needed income and think the societal climate of looking down on renters entitles you to make demands while giving nothing in return. The loss and disruption to the tenants is far greater than the other way round (after all, the LL could have prevented this situation by not selling) and frankly I think if anyone has a right to 'moral' considerations, it's them.

If he has given you notice, then surely you have to leave by that date, not on that date? So any date between the notice being served and the final eviction date would be an acceptable date to leave?

[quote gnomeathome]@looptheloopinahulahoop Yes there is a deposit held in a deposit scheme. He said that any weeks short of the months notice would be taken out of the deposit. This is why I want to try and do it the right way.
I am just unsure about the legalities of if we have to give notice if he has given us notice. I will have a look on shelter and MSE. Everyone has been very helpful, thanks.[/quote]
He cannot just tell you that. The deposit is YOUR money not his and he has to ASK for it to be retained. Most of the deposit schemes do not like the deposit being requested for rent, they expect it to have been sorted out by LL and T beforehand. So you can agree he can have some of the deposit, but he cannot demand it and expect it. Quibbling, I know.

As for giving notice. You know his is not enforceable as it is.

You can give a month's notice whenever you want, in line with your tenancy agreement, even if he has his own notice in place. Your choice.

@poorfanjo

In fact if he's being such a dick about it I'd exercise my right to change the locks which you can do, then provide the letting agent with a new key. Don't allow any more viewings. If you didn't leave in August he'd have to go to court to get you evicted, there is a 4 month minimum to see a judge at the moment because of the covid backlog.

Before anyone comes for me, tenants who are given notice by landlords and need to be housed in council or temporary housing cannot leave the house until after they are removed by bailiffs so after at least 2 court hearings because they will be found intentionally homeless and the council won't house them. So stop allowing viewings, it goes both ways, if he's being a difficult person about the notice, no more viewings

That's not always the case. The council here rehouse before the bailiff date, often well before if they can.

When the tenants are older, they often get rehoused soon after the court grant has granted the PO, as properties for older people become vacant a lot more often.

[quote KnobJockey]@Caffeinatedmonstergirl I also have a single second property that I rent out, similar situation to yours. I'm a good landlord. I also think you're being a fool about it. Think about it this way:
You want to sell your house
You want your tenant to leave so that you can complete a sale
The law says the tenant doesn't have to allow viewings
The law says the tenant doesn't have to leave at the end of a notice period
Lots of tenants when given notice either stop paying rent, or damage properties

Your tenant then offers to leave but only with 2 weeks notice instead of 4. You would be an absolute fool to turn that down for a few hundred pounds[/quote]
Exactly. Such an odd attitude toward a tenant she describes as ‘lovely’.

Check legalities, but I would be tempted to give notice now, wait a week and the start looking so that you're able to move with the 2 week deadline. Refuse all access to the house, since he won't give you any leeway, two can play that game.

@snowballer

I bought my first property, then met my now DH and moved into ‘his’ house which necessitated renting my house.

I'm not sure this makes you an accidental landlord, seems an active choice to me. Accidental landlords tend to be those who can't sell houses because of market conditions etc, or because they've had to move away for work etc. You chose to rent your house out

Are you really being this petty? Accidental as in I didn’t invest in a buy to let with the sole purpose of renting it out for profit. I had the choice either to sell or rent out my vacant property and selling wasn’t an option at the time because of market conditions, so I had to rent it to get the bills paid.

I think he's being a bit mean tbh. He wants the full rent right up until he sells it. That's my guess. Hoping everything runs smoothly and you move out on Aug 30th and pay all your rent right up until then. I'd say no sorry you are effectively kicking me out so I'll move as soon as I find somewhere.

@gnomeathome

No issues between LL and us. He used to be fairly reasonable (fixed/replaced things as LL should!). No eviction notice, just a series of emails telling us what their plans were and how they needed to sell. This was back in March. Covid rules meant 6 months notice. I am aware that we didn't need to let agents/buyers in but we were trying to be reasonable. I just now feel he is not being reasonable back. No eviction notice given and if I wanted to get all legal on him (as he seems to trying to do to us) then I probably could as no official notice, just emails.

If the LL hasn't issued a formal Section 21 notice, then he hasn't given you notice. Telling you in an email that he requires you move by X date doesn't cut it.

And iirc, the notice is different for fixed tenancies and periodic tenancies.

If you want to stick to your guns, he'll need to serve notice properly.

@Mummyoflittledragon

You do realise that this thread isn’t about me? I used my own situation as an example. Where did I say that I would do this to my tenant? He is a wonderful tenant and I would actually do my best to work with him in the event I needed him to move out and he asked to leave earlier than the notice period dictated. I just don’t judge those that wouldn’t, as everyone’s financial circumstances are different. They have no legal or moral obligation to lose out on two weeks of income just to facilitate the tenant. And yes, neither does the tenant have to cooperate in return but I don’t see both things as equal. The landlord isn’t acting out of spite, he is just insisting on what the law says he is entitled to expect. Most decent tenants would accept this and not obstruct viewings etc as petty revenge for the landlord insisting on the full notice that was set out in the tenancy agreement that they both signed.

Some landlords are just despicable.

We are currently selling our house that is tenanted. It's been a massive inconvenience to him, so we have given him a few months rent free. Otherwise he was going to really struggle to get together enough money for a deposit to a new house. All we asked for was 2 weeks notice. It was the least we could do. He is still there and the house has sold. The buyer is going to continue to rent to him, so it's a win win all round and I hope he does something nice with the money he has saved.

I agree with the comments saying to play dirty. If he won't give you an inch...take a mile!!

This happened to us. Sold our home and moved into a rental. It had been taken off the market and I was given assurances that it wasn’t going to go back on sale. Sure enough four months later (start of Spring) the agent said they were putting it on the market and would we show people around. Checked my contract and said YOU can show buyers round only on a Wednesday between 10 and 12 (when I took to playgroup) and there was absolutely nothing they could do about.

Your LL is being a prize CF and I say that as a LL myself.

No matter what the contract says, you are not legally obliged to allow viewings. You are legally entitled to ‘quiet enjoyment’ of what is your home, and that does not include random strangers traipsing around, let alone being asked to ‘pop out’ for the duration!

As for ‘accidental’ LLs, IMO that term should be banned. Nobody becomes a LL by accident - Oops, there’s someone living in our flat! How the hell did that happen?

It’s virtually invariably a decision taken because it’s in the LL’s financial interests to let the property.

BTW, OP, assuming you paid a deposit, do you have proof that it was registered with one of the schemes your LL is legally obliged to use? You should have been given a certificate to that effect - he was obliged to give you this. If the deposit was not correctly registered you can claim 3 months’ rent.

@Billben

how exactly are you an a accidental landlord, did you wake up and find you unexpectedly owned a second house one morning?

The cheekiness just makes you look stupid.

We became accidental landlords when we were buying our current property. The sale on our old house fell through at the last minute and we had to rent it out so we can carry on with the purchase of our new home.

I can't see how you "had" to sell. Delaying, or withdrawing from the purchase of the new house and finding another, would have been two options. If you were able to proceed with that purchase without selling, you clearly didn't need the equity from the previous house to complete the sale.

Caffeinatedmonstergirl

Are you being serious??? For all we know he might be an accidental landlord and cannot afford to let his tenants leave without the full month’s notice that they are legally obligated to give. I’m a (accidental) landlady and certainly couldn’t afford to lose out on two weeks of rent. I also rented myself for years before owning a property and accepted that these things can happen. I certainly wouldn’t have made life difficult for my landlord by refusing to give access to the property for viewings, that’s just vindictive and spiteful.

I don't share the usual and ridiculous hatred against landlords that you find generally on MN, but in this instance, you are being ridiculous.

It's the landlord who is giving notice, is selling no less. So yes, he should let the tenants leave early, he's the one making life of tenants difficult, not the other way round. It will make the sell a hell of a lot easier for him too, most people won't touch a property occupied by tenants, even if they are on notice!

Too much hassle if they trash the place, refuse to leave and so on.

Why should tenants be forced to stay (when they could have moved) AND help with viewings?

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER, becoming an accidental LL does happen. I had it happen due to moving in with my now DH. We couldn't sell my property (the market was bad) and then it went in to massive negative equity. I couldn't afford to sell. I sold the property as soon as I could, it was horrible being a LL.

I had the choice either to sell or rent out

So it wasn't accidental then was it, @Caffeinatedmonstergirl? You had a choice in the matter, and you chose to become a LL.

I'm not criticising you for becoming a LL, btw, I'm sure you're a good LL and there is a great need for good LLs to rent out decent properties. Without them, the homeless situation would be even worse.

But it's disingenuous when people claim they became landlords "accidentally", almost as though they fell over with a pen in their hand and inadvertently happened to sign their name on a tenancy agreement that was just lying on the pavement.

This right to peaceful enjoyment is always mentioned on here but my new tenants' contract includes a clause agreeing to allow viewings during the final two months of the tenancy, because I'm planning to sell next year (they were made aware). Is this not standard?

If the original tenancy agreement doesn't expire til aug, I'd refuse viewings til you given your 1 month notice 31 July and then look to move. If it takes you longer than 1 month you've still got leeway as it takes a while to get someone out. Just keep paying rent.

@Caffeinatedmonstergirl you've just proved my pint. You chose to let your house.

You, not him, hold all the legal negotiating power here. He hasn't given you correct notice. Even if he had, it takes a long time to evict a tenant staying beyond their notice.

I would tell him that considering the rental market right now, the only way I can reasonably leave before the 31st August is if I cease owing rent beyond the day I move out.

Only two parties can end a tenancy
The tenant
A court

He hasn't given you a formal s.21 so therefore you do not have to move out by Aug 31st

You can wait until he formally gives you a s.21 and then get it reviewed to ensure that it is correct with the dates it contains.

Then when you get to the notice date, you can sit tight until the court bailiff turns up. This will take months as there is quite a back log due to covid at the moment.

You hold the power here. Not the LL

He needs to realise this at some point but I wouldn't be telling him about the s.21 yet.
If he wants you out by August 31st, you could come to some (financial) arrangement.

This should take the stress out of the situation for you as you don't actually have to move.

Don't allow any more viewings.

'The landlord isn’t acting out of spite, he is just insisting on what the law says he is entitled to expect. Most decent tenants would accept this and not obstruct viewings etc as petty revenge for the landlord insisting on the full notice that was set out in the tenancy agreement that they both signed.'

A tenant refusing viewings is also 'just insisting on what the law says [they are] entitled to expect' - quiet enjoyment of the property throughout the duration of the rental. Can't you see the massive bias in your thinking about this? I'm sure it stems from the idea (very widespread in the UK) that people who rent somehow aren't quite proper people - the LL gets to insist on their rights, the tenants are supposed to know their place be accommodating and grateful and any attempt to assert their own rights is 'spite'.

you've just proved my pint

We REALLY need a thread about the best typo. Loving that one.

(thinking about the "non shallot" poster from another thread too)