Landlord wants full notice even though selling property.

[gnomeathome]

Our landlord is selling the house we live in, he has given us until 31st August to move out. We have seen countless properties, put offers in etc but most are listed as 'available immediately' . We have lost out on 5 properties so far because we can't move immediately as we have a months notice to give. I have asked him if we can move within 2 weeks because of this issue and he said no, he wants the full months notice (or we would have to pay the difference in rent which we cannot afford to do).
We have had to have potential buyers looking at the house whilst we are still here and the landlord had the gall to say that we were making the house look small by being there whilst buyers and agents were coming around (we are a family). So could we 'pop out' during all viewings!

AIBU to think that not letting us leave early is just plain greedy? At this rate we wont find anywhere to move to that lines up perfectly to the eng of August. Do we legally have to give a months notice if they are the ones who have given us notice?

@AintPageantMaterial

We really are accidental landlords. We did wake up one morning suddenly owning a property because DH’s grandmother died and her home had tenants in it (she had moved into a care home). We don’t want to be landlords and, indeed, DH’s sister also now owns half the house so it really does have to be sold. We have given the tenants 8 months notice and will not hold them responsible for any rent once they find somewhere else and we will not start marketing the property until they have left - even though this will mean trying to sell a vacant property in the winter. It is possible to be an accidental landlord. I don’t see why any tenant should afford additional courtesy to a landlord that is not extending any latitude to them though. It seems 🩳 to me. It could take him longer to sell if he can’t market the property fully until they vacate.

You could sell the property with tenants in situ.

It would mean less money, of course, but you still have a choice, plus you'd have the income up until the sale. And the tenants wouldn't have to face the expense, hassle and uncertaintly of moving, which is a dreadful thing to inflict on someone when the rental market is every bit as overheated as the rest of the housing market.

No issues between LL and us. He used to be fairly reasonable (fixed/replaced things as LL should!). No eviction notice, just a series of emails telling us what their plans were and how they needed to sell. This was back in March. Covid rules meant 6 months notice. I am aware that we didn't need to let agents/buyers in but we were trying to be reasonable. I just now feel he is not being reasonable back. No eviction notice given and if I wanted to get all legal on him (as he seems to trying to do to us) then I probably could as no official notice, just emails.

how exactly are you an a accidental landlord, did you wake up and find you unexpectedly owned a second house one morning?

The cheekiness just makes you look stupid.

We became accidental landlords when we were buying our current property. The sale on our old house fell through at the last minute and we had to rent it out so we can carry on with the purchase of our new home.

Of course he's greedy he's a private landlord l, god forbid he'd have to pay a mortgage payment out of his own miserly pocket.

Refuse any more viewings because why should you bend over backwards when he is making you homeless.

Yep stop allowing viewings - you don't have two! And explain he'll have to wait until it's vacant as it's disrupting your right to quiet enjoyment of the property and tell him you'll not be moving out until 31st August so he'll have to arrange viewings for after then. Tell him you'll not be able to afford the months notice and to move and thus you'll be staying until the last day.

Tell him you apologise for the financial disruption this will cause him and if he's willing to allow you to move with a shorter notice period then you're sure you'll be able to find somewhere quicker which may then be of mutual benefit.

Leave the ball in his court. He's being a twat so play his own game.

If he hasn’t given you a s.21 notice you don’t have to go anywhere. Sit tight until you’ve got somewhere. After August he will realise he needs to issue a valid s.21 I’m sure but it’ll buy you time.

[quote BarbarianMum]@Caffeinatedmonstergirl how exactly are you an a accidental landlord, did you wake up and find you unexpectedly owned a second house one morning? If you cant afford to lose 2 weeks rent then you can't afford to be a landlord at all.[/quote]
I bought my first property, then met my now DH and moved into ‘his’ house which necessitated renting my house. I wasn’t and have never been a professional landlady with a string of properties. I also get a very low rent for the area - I could ask for much more but have attached more importance to keeping my lovely tenant who is a pleasure to deal with, keeps the property immaculate and always pays rent on time.

Why should anyone lose two weeks rent? Also, do you not appreciate being able to technically afford the loss of two weeks rent but still suffering the shortfall as a result? My piddly rent is now an income for me as I am unable to work due to my DC’s SEN and other family circumstances. I have savings so could cover the loss of two weeks (and more) rent but it would still affect me financially.

A landlord provides accommodation for a tenant to live in at cost, they don’t owe the tenant anything. And yes, neither does the tenant but as long as there is mutual respect on both sides I think it is vindictive to obstruct the potential sale of the property by refusing viewings. Someone with any moral fibre wouldn’t even consider it. But I know landlords are hated on here for having the audacity to own a second property 🙄

Also that means if you find somewhere sooner you can give him notice which is a month only.

So he/she's given you notice. When was it given to you? Is it normal notice, or have they issued a S21?

In your shoes, I would:
Tell the landlord that you are willing to help them out, if they are willing to return the favour. If they accept less than 1 months notice when you find a property, then you will continue to accept viewings for certain periods a week, and would be willing to leave for the duration and keep it at a tidy standard.

If they are not willing to do so, then unfortunately your goodwill has run out, and you will be unable to accept viewings at all while still a tenant of the property, as you are entitled to 'quiet enjoyment' of your home.

With regards to the notice period- if he gave it before June 1st, he needed to give you 6 months notice because of covid, regardless of what the contract says.
If he gave you it after June 1st, he needs to give you 4 months notice, regardless of what your contract says.
Those dates are also just a starting point. When your notice period ends, he then needs to issue a S21, which means he can then take you to court to evict you. The list for this is currently months/years long.

So, if he really wants to be unreasonable with you, you can make it clear that you won't be leaving until you have found somewhere that accepts his month notice period, regardless if thats the end of August or not, and unfortunately you still won't be taking viewings while in the property, as is your right. He could have hold of that house for a very long time if you don't want to play ball.

Has he given you notice to leave? If that’s the case he can’t then expect you to give notice as well….

@jellybeansforbreakfast post has excellent advice. Meet fire with fire. You have the upper hand.

Your landlord is an asshole and the law is more subtle and complex than you perhaps realise:

1. You do not have to agree to let any viewings take place. You have the statutory right to "quiet enjoyment" of the property during your tenancy. It doesn't matter whether your tenancy agreement says you have to facilitate viewings of the property - the legal fact is that you don't. Tell your landlord and the estate agent that no viewings will be permitted. Change the locks if necessary - as long as you put the old locks back when you move out and don't cause any damage to the doors.
2. Your landlord wants to sell the property with vacant possession - i.e. with you not in it. Nobody wants to buy a property with a tenant in it. Unfortunately for your landlord they have to evict you properly and in accordance with the law. They can't just say "I want you out on 31 August". They have to provide you with the correct form of notice with the correct deadlines. Currently they must provide you with 4 months notice if they gave you notice after 1 June 2021. If notice was given to you between September 202 and 31 May 2021 the notice would have had to have been 6 months. Regardless of the actual end date of your tenancy as set out in the tenancy agreement. 4 months notice from 1 June (say) already takes you up to the end of September so I guess your LL is out of luck for the 31 August...
3. An eviction notice must be in the correct form, and must also satisfy certain requirements. These are set out here: england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/eviction/section_21_eviction/how_to_check_a_section_21_notice_is_valid.

• Did your landlord put any deposit into an approved deposit scheme within the deadline?
• Do you have a a copy of the current gas safety certificate and the EPC for the property?
• Did you receive a nice explanatory leaflet with your tenancy? If no to any of these questions, then the eviction notice may be invalid. And your landlord will have to start the process again, and the 4 months notice resets.

4. Even if your original tenancy agreement expires, you don't have to leave. You can go onto a rolling "periodic" tenancy automatically. Whereupon you stay and continue paying your rent. Similar rules about eviction apply as to if you were still in the original fixed-term tenancy, but you can move out upon 1 months notice from you to the LL.
5. Even if your landlord does do everything by the book and serves you a valid notice, then you still have your notice period and if they do want to go to court to enforce possession then there is a huge backlog of cases.. More time.....

Seriously - check out the Shelter website - england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice specifically the pages on "private renting", "eviction", and "Section 21 eviction".

Of course, none of the above is to suggest that you're actually going to do all or any of these things. You want to leave, and your landlord wants you to leave. So, as reasonable people you ought to be able to come to some mutually agreeable compromise bearing in mind that with you as a sitting tenant any buyer would have to deal with the potentially months-long hassle of evicting you because your tenancy doesn't die when the property is sold and that makes the property less valuable.

@Billben

how exactly are you an a accidental landlord, did you wake up and find you unexpectedly owned a second house one morning?

The cheekiness just makes you look stupid.

We became accidental landlords when we were buying our current property. The sale on our old house fell through at the last minute and we had to rent it out so we can carry on with the purchase of our new home.

Exactly! It’s laughable! I don’t know why some people are so bitter. Life isn’t always predictable. I also did rent for nearly a decade and never felt anyone owed me anything. It’s a business transaction at the end of the day. I like to think I was a good tenant and now I try to be a good landlord.

@gnomeathome

No issues between LL and us. He used to be fairly reasonable (fixed/replaced things as LL should!). No eviction notice, just a series of emails telling us what their plans were and how they needed to sell. This was back in March. Covid rules meant 6 months notice. I am aware that we didn't need to let agents/buyers in but we were trying to be reasonable. I just now feel he is not being reasonable back. No eviction notice given and if I wanted to get all legal on him (as he seems to trying to do to us) then I probably could as no official notice, just emails.

So he is trying to get you to play nice but has no intention of reciprocating?

Tough.

Work out exactly what you need from him to be out of his house in reasonable time. Then email him and outline it all, then ask him to be flexible so that you can get out of his house, leaving it free for viewings etc.

If he responds with a no then tell him that you expect to receive formal paperwork at his convenience. In the meantime you will not continue to allow viewings.

And then spend the next 4 or 5 months saving up any money you can to make your moving out easier for you.

OP if he's given you until 31 August to move out, hasn't he given you notice? So you can move out whenever you like?

You're not giving him notice because he has already done it. I'd just move out when it suits you and stop paying rent from that date.

Only caveat to that is whether there's a deposit on hold for you and if he'd try to get what he says is rent owing deducted.

@Caffeinatedmonstergirl I also have a single second property that I rent out, similar situation to yours. I'm a good landlord. I also think you're being a fool about it. Think about it this way:
You want to sell your house
You want your tenant to leave so that you can complete a sale
The law says the tenant doesn't have to allow viewings
The law says the tenant doesn't have to leave at the end of a notice period
Lots of tenants when given notice either stop paying rent, or damage properties

Your tenant then offers to leave but only with 2 weeks notice instead of 4. You would be an absolute fool to turn that down for a few hundred pounds

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

I'd ask a lawyer but for a start I'd no longer allow anyone to look around the property. This is for his benefit, not yours - why do him any favours when he won't do you any? Start making his life a bit harder - it's your only bargaining chip

This.

I'm pretty sure this has come up on threads before, and the LL has no right to expect you to make yourself scarce while he shows people round - and may not even have a right to show them "private" areas (eg bedrooms) without your permission.

I bought my first property, then met my now DH and moved into ‘his’ house which necessitated renting my house.

I'm not sure this makes you an accidental landlord, seems an active choice to me. Accidental landlords tend to be those who can't sell houses because of market conditions etc, or because they've had to move away for work etc. You chose to rent your house out

As pp have said, he hasn't issued a s.21 so if you are still looking in August it's tough shit. I have zero sympathy for landlords that operate this way. Absolutely none.

Find somewhere else. When you have found somewhere else tell him he has 2 choices. He either releases you from your contract in 2 weeks or you will stay until the bailiffs turn up. He will huff and puff but it's absolutely his problem, not yours.

Have you paid a deposit? Is it registered? Do you have a copy of an inventory? Is the gas safety cert up to date? All these things must be in order to either hold the deposit or serve a valid s.21 notice.

I would also deny any viewings moving forwards. You don't have to give a reason not even in the final month of the non existent notice period.

Tenants actually hold quite a lot of power in situations like this, you just need to flex your legal muscles a bit. And if you do it could potentially be a lot more costly than 2 weeks rent.

Stop allowing access right now. No more viewings.

And dont panic about getting out in August. He hasnt followed proper eviction procedure. You dont need to leave on the date he tells you. Keep looking for a place, if it takes longer than August then that's just how it is. He cant do anything.

@looptheloopinahulahoop Yes there is a deposit held in a deposit scheme. He said that any weeks short of the months notice would be taken out of the deposit. This is why I want to try and do it the right way.
I am just unsure about the legalities of if we have to give notice if he has given us notice. I will have a look on shelter and MSE. Everyone has been very helpful, thanks.

@Caffeinatedmonstergirl

Interesting viewpoint. Either you abide by a contract or you don't. You can't say that expecting leniency from a landlord on rent is unfair, while also saying that expecting leniency from tenants on viewings is justified and to do otherwise would be vindictive.

I would argue that if you are a landlord that can't afford to go without a few weeks' rent to enable viewings to happen, then you can't afford to sell. You can't have your cake and eat it.

I say this as someone who has both rented and been a landlord.

One of the things you have to accept may happen when you rent.

And a tent doesn't have to facilitate your selling your house.

One of the things that happens when you rent out.

*tenant, not tent

That was the point I was mulling over. But sidetracked myself with the S21 requirements.

I can't find anything concrete. I've looked a few times and not found anything other than you can move out earlier than the last day but remain liable for the property, rent included, until the end of tenancy date. Which is what OPs landlord is requesting.

If a LL gives the current 4 months notice then the tenant remans liable until the end of that time period.

The tenant can give 1 months notice in the mean time, shortening the time period.

In both circumstances the tenant remains liable for rent until the end of the tenancy.

In OPs case there are two issues:

1. Her LL is not acting legally. He needs to get his acto together

1. He has chosen an infomral approach for his responsibilities whilst holding OP to the letter of the law (a law he is currently not following)

All she can do is appeal to his better nature / need for the house to sell!

But I would strongly advise looking at ALL of his legal obligations and checking they are in place. Some would be VERY handy for OP

1 Not having secured the deposit correctly would be an automatic cash windfall for OP

1. If he did not give her the correct paperwork then he MUST do this before any S21 becomes legal anyway, and doing that in hindsight gets complicated!

@gnomeathome

No issues between LL and us. He used to be fairly reasonable (fixed/replaced things as LL should!). No eviction notice, just a series of emails telling us what their plans were and how they needed to sell. This was back in March. Covid rules meant 6 months notice. I am aware that we didn't need to let agents/buyers in but we were trying to be reasonable. I just now feel he is not being reasonable back. No eviction notice given and if I wanted to get all legal on him (as he seems to trying to do to us) then I probably could as no official notice, just emails.

So he hasn’t given you a section 21. Wow. I thought he had so he’s so in the shit if he wants you out in August. Idiot. Ignore what I’ve said then and negotiate with this arsehole. You’ve had some great advice about how to do this. You hold so much power in this situation. You just need to wield it.