To start counting my commuting time into my weekly hours at work?

[BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz]

Hear me out before you vote I know on paper it's probably YABU but I have my reasons.

My department has been 100% home based since 20 March 2020 due to covid. As of April this year, my employer has formally introduced a "work when, where and how you like" policy. Basically, as long as you do your work, great. Directors are leaving it to Department Managers to work out how that looks/works for their individual teams.

My work and that of everyone on my team, can and is being done 100% remotely. Any face to face / office based working is done on a want rather than need basis.

I currently split my 37.5 hours as:- Mon-Fri I work 8.15-2.45, then I do the school run. I then have 5 hours still to do, and I do these split across Mon-Fri any days/times after the school run that works for me and my family. I take into account all meetings and have never declined one due to the way I work my hours. My manager is completely happy with how I work.

If and when I choose to go into the office I count my commute within that. So I still work on the hours above. Obviously if anything pressing is needed, I dont think "well I have done my 37.5 so I'm not doing any more" I just work til the task is done.

Management are now introducing a fortnightly face to face meeting (still tbc due to outbreaks).

AIBU to keep counting my commuting time as work? Especially on days where I am asked to travel into the office at a random time (say 11am) for 1.5hrs?

I would include travel as part of your work time. I don't really see it as any different from working in office A and being asked to attend a midday meeting in office B. You would start your workday in office A as normal, leave office A in time to travel to office B, attend the meeting and return to office B and finish your workday. Normally you would commute outside of your work hours to/from office A in your own time. In this scenario as office A is your home then there is no additional commute at the start/end of the day and that time is your own.

@VariantL1130

I think it depends but my view is probably coloured by how I work.

Currently we are all WFH but previously I'd have to attend meetings all over the county at various times. So I might start my day in the office at 9am but then have to be at Xtown at 11am. On my timesheet I'd put that I started at 9 and finished at 5. I wouldn't have taken out the travel time out of the day.

If my meeting was at 9 at Xtown then I wouldn't include my commute as my hours, as my day would start when I arrived for that meeting.

In your case, your base of work is your home. If you had to go into the office at the start of the day, then no, you shouldn't be including that in your working hours, but if they are asking you to go in at 11am or whatever, then I think it's reasonable to assume that your commute is part of your work day as you're already part way through it.

I originally voted YABU but now, on reading this post by VariantL, this is how I'd do it too.

Also - it sounds like your employer generally has a good attitude to wfh.

I've worked remotely since 2017, apart from core hours when we have to be at our desks for live chat and meetings, then as long as the work is done they we're reasonably flexible. There's a lot of us that do the school run in the afternoon, I also went for a swim at lunch and did Rainbows on Zoom with DD after school. My work has still been finished, if it was busier then I would have cut out the swim. I work harder when I'm at my desk because of the flexibility I'm afforded. When we were busy in January I was working 14 hour days with minimal breaks and often working until 11pm at night. It works both ways.

Well - I WFH Jan and Feb. I went in for a meeting at 2pm one afternoon and did not add an hour to make up for the 20 mile round trip. But I was asked to come in.

However I agree this is open to abuse by employees who decide to choose to come in twice a week from 90 minutes away at say 11am.

If I was travelling between workplaces during the day, I wouldn't count that time as time I hadn't worked. Surely this is the same.

As in from one company office to another. Not really my time is it.

Until recently, I was also wfh as standard. We were allowed to take some days in the office if it was necessary for work. I also have a second site where I sometimes work, and if I’m there, commuting time from the primary office is counted as work because it’s not my primary place of work.

If I spend a full day at the office (primary work place in non-COVID times), then I don’t count commuting time as part of my working day, but if I’m wfh and I’ve already clocked in, I don’t sign out for the commute. I guess that’s much the same as you’re describing. My commute is much shorter than yours, but the principle is the same. I get paid for commuting if I’m not travelling to my primary place of work, which is the case with going to the office when I’m wfh.

Whether your boss would agree, I’m not sure. You’re in the UK, where people are expected to work extra hours without pay if there’s work to be done, but the commitment that demonstrates from your side is unfortunately often taken for granted and is not reciprocated by generosity in the opposite direction, as is apparent from this thread.

What are your employers like? Could you discuss this with them, or are you worried that will highlight the fact that you’ve been doing this up till now?

Iffy

I think you are right OP, in the situation you describe.

If you attend a meeting at 11am, travelling 0.5hrs each way to get there that definitely counts as working time. It's in the middle of the working day, doing something dictated to you by work!

We have to do timesheets (service business charge hours out to clients) and I would always include travel to meetings, otherwise there's huge amounts of time unaccounted for. Just because it's an internal team meeting that's no different IMO

I am told to wfh by my employer
It's not what you put in your opening post. You said that staff could pick to work where they want. You are choosing to work from home. You are also choosing, at least at the moment, to go in the office to do something that makes it easier doing there.

So you could pick to go to the office the whole day but because you are not, you consider that commuting to the office should be considered time spent working, time that as part of your contract, as it stands now, should be spent doing actual work.

This is all getting pedantic though because this thread was pointless from the start. 14 pages of you confirming that it is not an issue and your manager is happy, so there's nothing to advise on.

Beginning or end of day, absolutely not counted as working hours. But if I had to travel in for a meeting half way through my working day, I wouldn’t make up this time.

YABU, don't be so ridiculous

@Secretroses

I agree that it matters whether your place of work is contractually the office or if it is now home. I should imagine most people's contracts still state that they work in the office 9-5 every day even though that is not currently the case and nor will it be in the future.

However, what if your office has downsized as a result of covid and there is no longer the option for people to work in the office as before even if they wanted to? You then become obliged to work from home as there isn't a desk for you anymore at the office. In that case, I feel employment contracts should change the base place of work to home and then travelling to the office for a meeting becomes work time.

Absolutely this. Once the ‘work from home’ advice is fully dropped, there are decisions to be made and new contracts needed. Just muddling along mixing wfh with childcare doesn’t seem professional. I think a return to office based working, with an option for one or two days wfh as appropriate will become the norm.

I think this is a bit grey. Full days absolutely not but if you are being brought in for one meeting then I think travel time is not actually that unreasonable.

In the old days when office based I used to go to quite a few meetings with people in different offices. That travel time would have been work

The issue for me is whether you are generally being brought in for one meeting or if the expectation is really that is an office day for you all.

I think it’s going to be different for different employers. If you are technically office based, then commuting time wouldn’t usually be counted, but these are no usual times. I’d clarify with your manager.

If you normally work from home and are contracted to do so, then travel time is included, as are costs. We do and I get paid all time and travel as soon as I open the front door, in theory. Time wise it doesn’t quite work like that in practice. I was out for work this week with an overnight stop. The drive there was during working hours. The following day was a 7:30am start and arrive home at 9:15pm, so a long day. I’d usually just take that time as part and parcel of the job. I know we have quiet times when I can finish early or start late and know we all do over our official hours when looked at over time.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

And with that, you're wfh as a choice

Not while they are also telling us to stay away from the office.

They - as in government or employer?

Government has simply said when you can, wfh... They've not said you can't return to your office. Neither has your employer from the information you've provided.

How long is your commute?

I count the commuting hours (that I work) in my working hours and always have. By that I mean, not the time I'm walking from the train to the tube, but the 2 hours per working day that I am sitting on the train actually working. My employer has always been supportive of this. I work on the train, get into the office for core hours (about 9:30-4) and then work on the train home, getting off the train about 6:30-7pm. It means that on my commuting days, I work about 10-11 hours (I also work in the evening for about an hour after dc are in bed) and when I was doing this, worked FT compressed hours over 4 days.

In my industry, this is considered relatively normal and pretty acceptable. No one even raised an eyebrow when I suggested this working pattern. As long as the work is done and I'm there for key meetings, no one cares when I work (and it's the same for everyone else). But obviously, this has to work in your industry and your employer has to be supportive.

I think if you're being asked to go in for a meeting midday then you could reasonably count the commute as working hours.

For example if I was at work in one office from 9-5 and my boss asked me to go to a meeting in another office at 2pm. The travelling time was 1 hour in total then it would be totally unreasonable for my boss to expect me to work until 6pm.

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz

the cleaner scenario

If my whole job each day was to attend X place of work for every contracted hour (as per cleaner) then of course communting is not included. I've said that upthread.

If an employee of mine was working 100% from their home (eg if I had a PA), and now I have decided that they have to come to my home 1 hour a fortnight in the middle of their working day then of course I would include them travelling within their work hours. Because I have asked them to do 1 hours work in another location which takes X amount of time off them in traveltime.

It's completely different to me booking someone self employed for 2 hours whose whole 2 hours is based at my home.

In that case if I were you're employer you'd be asked to be back in the office full time .

That would put an end to this nonsense.

@mindutopia

I count the commuting hours (that I work) in my working hours and always have. By that I mean, not the time I'm walking from the train to the tube, but the 2 hours per working day that I am sitting on the train actually working. My employer has always been supportive of this. I work on the train, get into the office for core hours (about 9:30-4) and then work on the train home, getting off the train about 6:30-7pm. It means that on my commuting days, I work about 10-11 hours (I also work in the evening for about an hour after dc are in bed) and when I was doing this, worked FT compressed hours over 4 days.

In my industry, this is considered relatively normal and pretty acceptable. No one even raised an eyebrow when I suggested this working pattern. As long as the work is done and I'm there for key meetings, no one cares when I work (and it's the same for everyone else). But obviously, this has to work in your industry and your employer has to be supportive.

Are you still doing the commute?

@shouldistop

I think if you're being asked to go in for a meeting midday then you could reasonably count the commute as working hours.

For example if I was at work in one office from 9-5 and my boss asked me to go to a meeting in another office at 2pm. The travelling time was 1 hour in total then it would be totally unreasonable for my boss to expect me to work until 6pm.

I would too if I attend appointments in the city. Again though, due to. U contract being wfh, even the walk to the station is included.

However, this doesn't sound like what the op is doing.

My reflex is “of course commuting isn’t work time” but I can see how if you have to travel in the middle of your working day it’s different.
If you are due to be in office at say 8.30 and you leave the house at 7.45, then it would be dishonest and taking the piss to declare you started work at 7.45

However - while WFH it has occasionally come up that I needed to go into the office for 11am. What I did was log on at 8.30, work until 10.30, leave the house, in office for 11. I certainly didn’t count that half hour that I was traveling as a break in my working hours, as it was traveling between different places of work. I would have been annoyed if I had had to work an extra 30 minutes to account for the travel time in the middle of the day.

In my industry, this is considered relatively normal and pretty acceptable
Well yes, if you end up working 11h a day, they are certainly getting a good deal. OP works 7.5h, inclusive of commute, that's quite different.

Commuting for answering during the day is of course not commuting and most agree.

The issue is OP is currently counting going to the office and back as working hours when she goes there to do some photocopying, which she could do as part of a working from the office day and therefore commuting to.

Do you actively work on your commute? If not I don't think you can count it.

Quite simply, this.

For christs sake, whats wrong with people?? Has wfm turned them into zombies??