To think WHO are trying to commit organisational suicide? They’ve said that women of childbearing age should not drink alcohol AT ALL.

[RickiTarr]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/16/accused-sexism-saying-women-childbearing-age-should-not-drink/

I'm not saying its not rubbish, but unless they come out and double down on this, I wouldn't be inferring that the WHO has had a policy change and wants to stop all women drinking alcohol. I would think that an organisation with a multi-lingual staff team and multiple rounds of editing didn't pick up on the nuance of one sentence in the context it was written in, probably because they were focused on other more 'contraversial' parts of it

Clear medical advice is literally a part of their job. Its all over the media, no comment about amending or reviewing yet.

And yes pregnant "people" and no mention of men where drinking causes not only health problems and sperm problems but also wider behavioural problems affecting, in particular women and children. No agenda there at all.

That isn't correct. The foetus has a yolk sac for early nutrition and doesn't take nutrition from mother's bloodstream via the cord until 7 or 8 weeks iirc.

I see this repeated a lot on forums, but anything I have read about fetal alcohol syndrome states that the time when the embryo is most vulnerable to damage from alcohol is the beginning of gastrulation, which occurs at around 14 dpo, right around the time a woman's period would be due.
Alcohol can permeate into every cell in the body at every stage in pregnancy.

@LookingGlassMilk

That isn't correct. The foetus has a yolk sac for early nutrition and doesn't take nutrition from mother's bloodstream via the cord until 7 or 8 weeks iirc.

I see this repeated a lot on forums, but anything I have read about fetal alcohol syndrome states that the time when the embryo is most vulnerable to damage from alcohol is the beginning of gastrulation, which occurs at around 14 dpo, right around the time a woman's period would be due.
Alcohol can permeate into every cell in the body at every stage in pregnancy.

Can you link to this?

Even if true you cannot try to control women of childbearing age as a blanket rule

And that’s before you get to massive harms on society from men drinking

WHO rep on WH atm busily blaming the alcohol issue for "misinterpreting" the report.

This is massively disingenuous. WHO know full well how women as a class are discriminated against and coerced. If they don't understand how this kind of report is abused against women they should quit and employ people who do understand.

@LookingGlassMilk

That isn't correct. The foetus has a yolk sac for early nutrition and doesn't take nutrition from mother's bloodstream via the cord until 7 or 8 weeks iirc.

I see this repeated a lot on forums, but anything I have read about fetal alcohol syndrome states that the time when the embryo is most vulnerable to damage from alcohol is the beginning of gastrulation, which occurs at around 14 dpo, right around the time a woman's period would be due.
Alcohol can permeate into every cell in the body at every stage in pregnancy.

@LookingGlassMilk can you please cite your sources?

journals.biologists.com/dmm/article/2/5-6/295/2233/Ethanol-induces-embryonic-malformations-by

I don't agree with the WHO advice, I'm of childbearing age, I drink alcohol and I'm not going to stop. I just don't like to see that yolk sac advice repeated because it might make people think that it's ok to drink at 4 or 5 weeks pregnant, which is the most dangerous time.

I read this as yet more interference in the reproductive rights of women. I'd be interested to hear China's response to this given their recent call for 3-baby families. Also, I'm way past childbearing age but maybe they've got something else in mind for me.

@MarshaBradyo

Even if true you cannot try to control women of childbearing age as a blanket rule

And that’s before you get to massive harms on society from men drinking

How is it control? It’s only advice. You can ignore it if you want. They aren’t banning the sale of alcohol to women.

Patty are you ok with the line?

It's late and I'm very tired, but I feel a whispery paranoia about this. Not that I'm concerned that it will have any traction here, but that the thing has been green-lit at several levels to get to this stage. How?

/////

Agree, there is something sinister about this and actually, I find it hard to believe it was a typo or draft that was released earlier than it should have.

A pp mentioned Gilead and that's absolutely what this brings to mind. Women, regardless of sexuality, age or want to have children shall be groomed into being human incubators.

It's concerning that's for sure.

Agree with you 100% OP - this only causes people to doubt the WHO further.

The only (semi-reliable) stats I could find on FASD levels in the UK was a study conducted with mothers who gave birth in Bristol in the 1990s, in which up to 17% of the babies showed some symptoms of FASD (bearing in mind FASD symptoms can overlap with other issues not related to alcohol): www.bristol.ac.uk/policybristol/policy-briefings/fasd-uk-prevalence/

Trends from the UK show that average alcohol consumption has decreased over the past 2 decades, meaning if anything the likelihood of babies being born with FASD now is even lower.

We have early detection pregnancy tests now that can pick up on pregnancy sooner than ever. It would be better to advise regular testing and limiting alcohol consumption in the case of potential pregnancy during the 2 week wait, rather than seeking to prevent all women of child-bearing age (regardless of the status of their sexual activity and contraceptive use) of drinking altogether!

As stated in their report, it's predominantly men who are the problem drinkers and yet the report doesn't recommend that they go tee-total. In the UK, it's men (and predominantly older people) who are the bigger drinkers - even with being a nation of "drinkers", young women are being sensible with their alcohol consumption:
www.statista.com/statistics/369808/alcohol-units-consumed-by-gender-and-age-in-england/

www.statista.com/statistics/369868/weekly-alcohol-consumption-by-gender-in-england/

I think, as PPs have noted above, this poor advice from the WHO signifies how they really think of women. It's unscientific clap-trap and very poor form

"Alcohol can affect fertility by altering sperm count, size, shape, and motility. In men, heavy drinking affects fertility by: lowering testosterone levels, follicle stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone, and raising estrogen levels, which reduce sperm production."

So why are they only picking on women?????

fallfallfall I'm assuming you are posting your health and lifestyle recommendations on internet forums popular amongst men too? Or is it just women and girls you think need this life advice?

passes 🍷 round to all vipers of child bearing age

I’m teetotal and generally think the world as a whole would be better without alcohol and that most people’s lives would be improved if they stopped drinking. And even I think this is shocking.

I’m hoping there’s a translation issue or a lack of nuance somewhere or some other explanation but I agree that the wording of the statement as it stands is appalling and very worrying.

@MarshaBradyo no I think it’s clumsy and misguided but I think some of the posts on this thread are a bit hysterical. There is no ‘safe’ amount of alcohol for anyone to drink at any stage in life, but people continue to drink a lot in this country. Probably they thought it would be easier to appeal to women by putting it like this because not drinking in pregnancy is already an accepted idea for most people.

@LookingGlassMilk

journals.biologists.com/dmm/article/2/5-6/295/2233/Ethanol-induces-embryonic-malformations-by

I don't agree with the WHO advice, I'm of childbearing age, I drink alcohol and I'm not going to stop. I just don't like to see that yolk sac advice repeated because it might make people think that it's ok to drink at 4 or 5 weeks pregnant, which is the most dangerous time.

@LookingGlassMilk thanks for linking. I don't understand much of (my science A levels were a while back) but looks like this is mostly for "in frog, mouse and zebrafish embryos"

In any event, this WHO report is awful for many reasons...

@Magicpaintbrush

"Alcohol can affect fertility by altering sperm count, size, shape, and motility. In men, heavy drinking affects fertility by: lowering testosterone levels, follicle stimulating hormone, and luteinizing hormone, and raising estrogen levels, which reduce sperm production."

So why are they only picking on women?????

Men are also more likely to be overweight in the uk, so let's ban them from alcohol, McDonald's, burger King, KFC etc. Being overweight affects fertility too after all.

[quote PattyPan]@MarshaBradyo no I think it’s clumsy and misguided but I think some of the posts on this thread are a bit hysterical. There is no ‘safe’ amount of alcohol for anyone to drink at any stage in life, but people continue to drink a lot in this country. Probably they thought it would be easier to appeal to women by putting it like this because not drinking in pregnancy is already an accepted idea for most people.[/quote]
I think it hasn’t gone down well at all. Not just on here but media too.

It’s badly written and should be revised.

@PattyPan but by that logic there's also no safe amount to drive or cross the road. Life is absolutely full of risks

If they're going to say 'pregnant people' then surely it should be 'people of childbearing age'- doesn't alcohol consumption affect male fertility to an extent too anyway?

Alcohol is fucking terrible for you. It is...nobody wants to admit it because they love it.

But it's really bad for health.

@LadyOfLittleLeisure yes but they are a health organisation, it’s their job to research and inform people about the risks to their health so that they can make an informed decision

@FirewomanSam

I’m teetotal and generally think the world as a whole would be better without alcohol and that most people’s lives would be improved if they stopped drinking. And even I think this is shocking.

I’m hoping there’s a translation issue or a lack of nuance somewhere or some other explanation but I agree that the wording of the statement as it stands is appalling and very worrying.

Why is it shocking though? Alcohol is very bad for health...women who may want to conceive would be better off avoiding it. That's all there is to it.

They should say men too though.