To think WHO are trying to commit organisational suicide? They’ve said that women of childbearing age should not drink alcohol AT ALL.

[RickiTarr]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/16/accused-sexism-saying-women-childbearing-age-should-not-drink/

@RickiTarr yes, it’s not in the actions.

[quote PattyPan]@RickiTarr nor is it an action point to ban alcohol for women.

@Kinsters it recommends targeting at-risk groups which will obviously include men. It also includes families of problem drinkers. Given they are using DALYs as a measurement, FASD is probably going to skew more important because of the impact over a lifetime. Probably also more tractable.[/quote]
Per the report, 80.3% of disability adjusted life years are attributable to men. This being broadly in line with the sex split for deaths and individuals living with alcohol dependence. I don't believe that they are accounting for DALYs arising as a result of indirect harm from drinking. If they are they do not specify. I think it would be extremely difficult to calculate in any case, especially as they don't even acknowledge male violence as a major indirect harm resulting from alcohol consumption.

Not even just male violence either. How many children do you think go hungry in developing countries (and developed countries..) because daddy has drunk the salary/aid money?

[quote PattyPan]@RickiTarr yes, it’s not in the actions.[/quote]
That is the actions.

It literally comes under the heading “Action Area 2”

Wide shot and close up together in the section “Action Area 2”.

@RickiTarr no, the actions are the bit starting at the bottom of page 17 where it says ‘proposed actions for member states’ ‘proposed actions for the secretariat’ etc

Why is suggesting that all women of childbearing age (regardless of whether they are pregnant or TTC) should abstain from alcohol proportionate as a way to reduce instances of FASD? Those defending the wording are either ok with this as a recommendation, or think the WHO don’t mean this. If they don’t mean it, they shouldn’t say it. Don’t make excuses that “this is how demographics are divided up”. If that’s the case then it should change because it is resulting in a recommendation that doesn’t make any sense.

I'd love figures on the incidence of FAS vs incidence of women miscarrying as a result of violence against them (caused by alcohol).

similarly, incidence of FAS vs incidents of harm coming to children as a result of alcohol post birth. If 7.2% of all accidental deaths are related to alcohol (as per the report exerpt above) then I'm willing to guess we have children being killed/harmed by (men) as a result of alcohol at a significantly higher level than we're seeing FAS.

The FAS thing and alcohol in pregnancy generally annoys me on many levels because it is generally quite rare. And yet there's this huge focus on it while things we KNOW are causing problems - men getting drunk and coming home and beating their wives/children - are just sort of ignored or are lumped in the "well, not much we can do about it" category.

Have pregnant women really been prevented from buying bottles of wine in the supermarket here in the UK? I am appalled by that. On what grounds do they think they have the right to deny a purchase? Really is treating grown adult women like silly little children.

Are we going to end up in a situation where men have to buy alcohol for us? I know it's been said but it really does remind me of the beginning of Gilead, with husbands having to approve birth control... this is a very slippery slope indeed!

Why should the demographics change? Different groups have different needs etc.

I don’t think it’s brilliantly worded, I don’t think women should be banned from drinking, including pregnant women. I don’t think WHO means that all women should be banned from drinking - I think generally they want a decline in drinking full stop and a focus on preventing FAS. Public health legislation is pretty rare - public health messages pretty common. It’s up to the individual what they do with them.

I have to go and collect my children so will just agree to disagree.

If the description of the demographic isn’t appropriate they should clarify or change it. I work in this area. It is pointless to issue public health messages if you are using a description of a demographic that doesn’t actually define the group you intend it to. Counter productive even.

This is mad. It is absolutely not written in the way that women who are pregnant or might become pregnant (ie actively trying) should avoid alcohol. It reads as paternalistic and at worst, extremely misogynistic.

The only logical conclusion of this advice is that all men, from the age of ejaculation until death, are advised to never drink alcohol because of the KNOWN effects on sperm count, sperm quality, and rates of domestic violence.

I will wait for the above amendment to the WHO document 😃

I don’t think WHO means that all women should be banned from drinking - I think generally they want a decline in drinking full stop and a focus on preventing FAS

Who are the WHO to 'want' a decline in drinking? It's none of their business.

[quote PattyPan]@RickiTarr no, the actions are the bit starting at the bottom of page 17 where it says ‘proposed actions for member states’ ‘proposed actions for the secretariat’ etc[/quote]
Okay instead of arguing back and forth about terminology all afternoon can we agree that WHO have asserted in that report that “prevention of drinking amongst pregnant women and women of childbearing age” is a desirable aim?

@RocheLobe

Why is suggesting that all women of childbearing age (regardless of whether they are pregnant or TTC) should abstain from alcohol proportionate as a way to reduce instances of FASD? Those defending the wording are either ok with this as a recommendation, or think the WHO don’t mean this. If they don’t mean it, they shouldn’t say it. Don’t make excuses that “this is how demographics are divided up”. If that’s the case then it should change because it is resulting in a recommendation that doesn’t make any sense.

Very well summarised.

@SunflowerIris

This is mad. It is absolutely not written in the way that women who are pregnant or might become pregnant (ie actively trying) should avoid alcohol. It reads as paternalistic and at worst, extremely misogynistic.

The only logical conclusion of this advice is that all men, from the age of ejaculation until death, are advised to never drink alcohol because of the KNOWN effects on sperm count, sperm quality, and rates of domestic violence.

I will wait for the above amendment to the WHO document 😃

I’ll join you. We will need comfortable seating and provisions, I suspect.

“prevention of drinking amongst pregnant women and women of childbearing age”

The first is a good thing, the second is paternalistic nonsense.

@RickiTarr my point was, as it’s not replicated in the actions nor mentioned anywhere else, I suspect they don’t intend it to be there. But yes, we will have to wait and see if they make a statement to clarify.

[quote PattyPan]@RickiTarr my point was, as it’s not replicated in the actions nor mentioned anywhere else, I suspect they don’t intend it to be there. But yes, we will have to wait and see if they make a statement to clarify.[/quote]
Don’t intend it to be there? Wow. Well if they’re putting broad brush, totalitarian aspirations like that in their publications by mistake, then they certainly deserve to be disbanded.

Those defending the wording are either ok with this as a recommendation, or think the WHO don’t mean this. If they don’t mean it, they shouldn’t say it

Exactly

Don’t you think disbanding an agency that does a lot of work on women’s health over a badly worded sentence would lead to worse outcomes for women?

I think a huge overhaul, possibly amounting to dissolution and replacement, with everyone reapplying for their jobs is often a very healthy thing for a complacent and institutionally bigoted body. Its not their first problematic episode.

I haven’t said anything about disbanding but I don’t understand why you would defend it with “oh they didn’t really mean it”. If they are giving out public health then it’s their job to mean what they say. No one would make any efforts to defend me if I put out advice with wording that targeted a different group of people than intended.

I know an anti vaxxer who doesn't want to put chemicals in her body and her children's body but will gladly drink alcohol even when pregnant. You couldn't make this stuff up.