To think WHO are trying to commit organisational suicide? They’ve said that women of childbearing age should not drink alcohol AT ALL.

[RickiTarr]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/16/accused-sexism-saying-women-childbearing-age-should-not-drink/

There is mention of violence and crimes

What about the men though?
Their sperm will surely be affected, and it doesn't do their health any good either.

It mentions violence several times. Read the paper!

This is from the first page - in the second or third paragraph it’s already clearly stated that far, far more men overuse alcohol then women do.

T he harmful use of alcohol can also result in harm to others, such as family members, friends, co- workers and strangers. One of the most dramatic manifestations of harm to persons other than drinkers is prenatal alcohol exposure and the development of fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASD). The harms to others may be concrete (e.g. injuries or damages) or may result from suffering, poor health and well-being, and the social consequences of drinking (e.g. being harassed or insulted, or feeling threatened). Awareness and acceptance of the overall negative impact of alcohol consumption on a population’s health and safety is low among decision-makers and the general public. This is influenced by commercial messaging and poorly-regulated marketing of alcoholic beverages which deprioritize efforts to counter the harmful use of alcohol in favour of other public health issues.

@Quaggars, to the best of my knowledge men drinking prior to conception doesn’t alter the outcomes of a baby’s development in the same way as a woman drinking during pregnancy - it’s not about the people who drink - it’s about the effect on others. And without doubt, one of the most awful effects of drinking is fetal alcohol syndrome - it can not be undone. I say this as someone who definitely drank before I knew I was pregnant and didn’t entirely abstain during pregnancy.

But the point is the baby is irredeemably injured.

@PattyPan

It mentions violence several times. Read the paper!

It does mention it, though never highlighting that it is overwhelmingly men who perpetrate this violence and other social problems. It also specifically highlights foetal alcohol syndrome as "one of the most dramatic manifestations of harm" which, in my opinion is over-egging it somewhat...

@Kinsters - because the focus is not on the fertility of the drinker but the outcome for the baby. Biologically the mother drinking during pregnancy is far more harmful than a father drinking prior to it. WHO, in this particular are of focus, is concerned for the baby - not the parents

It is a dramatic manifestation because it is obvious , permanent and lifelong - in a way that more subtle negative effects of alcohol are not.

Biologically the mother drinking during pregnancy is far more harmful than a father drinking prior to it.

And after the pregnancy?

[quote EmmetEmma]@Kinsters - because the focus is not on the fertility of the drinker but the outcome for the baby. Biologically the mother drinking during pregnancy is far more harmful than a father drinking prior to it. WHO, in this particular are of focus, is concerned for the baby - not the parents[/quote]
But why? This isn't a report about the consequence of drinking in pregnancy. Its a report about the societal harms of alcohol and how best to address these harms. As the report notes the vast majority of alcohol related deaths and the vast majority of problem drinkers are men - yet it's women who are specifically targeted as being responsible for "one of the most dramatic manifestations of harm". It's women who governments are being told to target to curb their drinking. Yet the report states at the very beginning that most problem drinkers are men? It doesn't make sense and it's misogynistic. The harm that male drinkers do to their families and society as a whole is awful.

@Kinsters it says the paragraph above - about the harm from alcohol, after this, which I think is unbiased but clearly states that men have the bigger problem:

In 2016, an estimated 2.3 million deaths and 106.5 million DALYs among men globally were attributable to alcohol consumption. For women, the figures were 0.7 million and 26.1 million, respectively. Worldwide, in 2016, alcohol was responsible for 7.2% of all premature mortality (in persons aged 69 years or less). Younger people were disproportionately affected by alcohol; 13.5% of all deaths among 20–39-year-olds in 2016 were attributed to alcohol. According to estimates of the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), in OECD and European Union (EU) countries alcohol-related diseases and injuries cause life expectancy to be shortened by 0.9 years more than it otherwise would be over the next 30 years.4
In 2016, the age-standardized alcohol-attributable burden of disease and injury was highest in the African Region, whereas the proportions of all deaths and DALYs attributable to alcohol consumption were highest in the European Region (10.1% of all deaths and 10.8% of all DALYs) followed by the Region of the Americas (5.5% of deaths and 6.7% of DALYs). Approximately 49% of alcohol-attributable DALYs are due to noncommunicable diseases (NCDs) and mental health conditions, and about 40% are due to injury.
According to the latest WHO global estimates, 283 million people aged 15 years and older – 237 million men and 46 million women – live with alcohol use disorders (AUD), accounting for 5.1% of the global adult population. Alcohol dependence, as the most severe form of AUD, affects 2.6% of the world’s adults, or 144 million people.
The impact of the harmful use of alcohol on health and well-being is not limited to health consequences; it incurs significant social and economic losses relating to costs in the justice sector, costs from lost workforce and suffering

Sorry cross-posted

Emma are you ok with this blanket wording to all women child bearing age?

@PattyPan

It mentions violence several times. Read the paper!

But those mentions don’t translate into men being specifically targeted in their “action points”.

@EmmetEmma

Sorry cross-posted

Yes, I know that it highlights that men have more deaths/more problem drinkers. But why does it leave it there and not go on to recommend that campaigns are targeted at men to address this? Why does it target women instead?

But why? This isn't a report about the consequence of drinking in pregnancy. Its a report about the societal harms of alcohol and how best to address these harms. As the report notes the vast majority of alcohol related deaths and the vast majority of problem drinkers are men - yet it's women who are specifically targeted as being responsible for "one of the most dramatic manifestations of harm". It's women who governments are being told to target to curb their drinking. Yet the report states at the very beginning that most problem drinkers are men? It doesn't make sense and it's misogynistic. The harm that male drinkers do to their families and society as a whole is awful.

Exactly that. 👏🏼 👏🏼

It does have as a principle that protecting those at harm from negative alcohol use should be a priority. Many times it emphasises that care and support services should be provided for families harmed.

It’s not misogynistic to say only women can cause FAS, I totally agree that FAS is unlikely to be the most common negative impact of alcohol misuse - I can see what you mean about it appearing to be an unwarranted focus. I think it’s not because of sexism but that the WHO believes that education will reduce its incidence - and the dramatic aspect is because it is physically obvious and has a large effect on that child’s life.

Anyway, I’m sorry - I hope I don’t sound prudish or combative.

Yes, but it comes down to are women thinking beings in their own right, or do they have to be told what to do?

@EmmetEmma

It does have as a principle that protecting those at harm from negative alcohol use should be a priority. Many times it emphasises that care and support services should be provided for families harmed.

It’s not misogynistic to say only women can cause FAS, I totally agree that FAS is unlikely to be the most common negative impact of alcohol misuse - I can see what you mean about it appearing to be an unwarranted focus. I think it’s not because of sexism but that the WHO believes that education will reduce its incidence - and the dramatic aspect is because it is physically obvious and has a large effect on that child’s life.

Anyway, I’m sorry - I hope I don’t sound prudish or combative.

You don't sound prudish or combative.

I agree that women are solely responsible for FAS and would have zero problem with the WHO advising that education about the effects of alcohol consumption in pregnancy be a harm reduction strategy. Saying that it is one of the most dramatic manifestations of harm and that, as a result, all women of childbearing age should be targeted by initiative to prevent them from drinking. That's going way too far in my opinion. Especially given the fact that the harms caused by male drinking are not even discussed in any great depth except to say "men drink a lot more than women...ok moving swiftly on to how women's bodies need to be policed".

WHO do also have a massive framework specifically on reducing violence to women - RESPECT that addresses partner violence

@RickiTarr nor is it an action point to ban alcohol for women.

@Kinsters it recommends targeting at-risk groups which will obviously include men. It also includes families of problem drinkers. Given they are using DALYs as a measurement, FASD is probably going to skew more important because of the impact over a lifetime. Probably also more tractable.

It’s not misogynistic to say only women can cause FAS,

I’m not even totally convinced of that @EmmetEmma I would aver that most cases of FASD involve women who are problem drinkers, alcoholics and or have other substance abuse issues prior to conception. So there are often men complicit in “causing FAS” too; the men that impregnate women with alcohol issues.

I totally agree that FAS is unlikely to be the most common negative impact of alcohol misuse - I can see what you mean about it appearing to be an unwarranted focus.

That’s what we are pissed off about.

I think it’s not because of sexism but that the WHO believes that education will reduce its incidence - and the dramatic aspect is because it is physically obvious and has a large effect on that child’s life.

Several of us said up thread that we can see how they might have walked blindly into this. It isn’t really an excuse for putting something out that is so tilted.

[quote PattyPan]@RickiTarr nor is it an action point to ban alcohol for women.

@Kinsters it recommends targeting at-risk groups which will obviously include men. It also includes families of problem drinkers. Given they are using DALYs as a measurement, FASD is probably going to skew more important because of the impact over a lifetime. Probably also more tractable.[/quote]
Can you not see the issue in this excerpt?