To think WHO are trying to commit organisational suicide? They’ve said that women of childbearing age should not drink alcohol AT ALL.

[RickiTarr]

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/06/16/accused-sexism-saying-women-childbearing-age-should-not-drink/

Alcohol is fucking terrible for you. It is...nobody wants to admit it because they love it

So you’d prefer this report said all adults?

I should think that if you did the sums, you’d find an awful lot more children and babies were harmed by male drinking than by female drinking, all things considered

This, as others have mentioned.

It's chilling. I can't help feeling as though there's a tentative effort to see what level of erosion of women's basic rights can be ushered in through various back doors in recent times.

[quote LookingGlassMilk]**@LookingGlassMilk thanks for linking. I don't understand much of (my science A levels were a while back) but looks like this is mostly for "in frog, mouse and zebrafish embryos"

Here is one on macaques: academic.oup.com/cercor/article/17/12/2961/384220

Obviously there are ethical issues with doing a similar experiment on humans, but the same biological mechanisms apply.[/quote]
I agree with you that excess alcohol even during early pregnancy can produce FASD. However the levels of alcohol they were force-feeding the monkeys exceed what the average woman would drink on a regular basis.

From my reading they were saying the blood alcohol level of the macaques was around 231mg/dl. That's equivalent to a blood alcohol level of 0.231% (www.wikidoc.org/index.php/Blood_alcohol_content)

That's the equivalent of necking 4 glasses (150ml each) of wine in a single swig (www.alcohol.org/bac-calculator/)

I don't know a single woman who would swig 2/3rds of a bottle of wine in a single dose with no food...and do it regularly for 6-24 weeks!

That's my problem with these studies - they tend to translate poorly to actual real-world scenarios.

But I agree with you that binge drinking regularly in early pregnancy is a terrible idea. I'm just not sure the sort of person who would drink the amounts cited above would care what the WHO had to say about the matter (or even exists)

@naunet the report talks about all people and different life stages. There is one line in the 37 page report which mentions pregnant women and women of childbearing age’ (as a group), clearly it is an awkward phrasing that is aimed at preventing FASD and as women are the only ones who can get pregnant, no I don’t think it’s misogynistic to single women out in that respect

Triffid1 that's a realistic assessment of how reports often are tbh! I guess I hold bodies like WHO to higher standards, not sure why though. I'll never forget the project I was once involved in where the partner in charge had had multiple meetings and calls with the client and won a piece of work to do a report on this supposed tax issue they faced. He brought me in to write the report and within 10 minutes I realised the reason they hadn't paid the tax they supposedly owed was because the tax did not exist during the time period in question 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️

Its like when I read something about my particular field of expertise in the news and amp like "this is ridiculous and wrong" but never assume that the rest of what they say is just as wrong!

[quote PattyPan]**@naunet* the report talks about all people and different life stages. There is one line in the 37 page report* which mentions pregnant women and women of childbearing age’ (as a group), clearly it is an awkward phrasing that is aimed at preventing FASD and as women are the only ones who can get pregnant, no I don’t think it’s misogynistic to single women out in that respect [/quote]
Why do you think they don't mention the harms specifically caused by male drinking?

There is no ‘safe’ amount of alcohol for anyone to drink at any stage in life

Please show the research showing that all alcohol is actively harmful. There are studies suggesting some benefits for certain types of alcohol, not see one which shows that any alcohol consumption whatsoever is harmful.

"its only advice" - well no it isn't. Look at any thread here where someone asks about having a glass of champagne at a special event late in pregnancy and the foetus police are out in full strength telling the OP she will murder the potential child.

The reason that particular advice was changed was because the public body thought women were too stupid to understand 1-2 units a week in late pregnancy. Oh sorry, thought women would get "confused" between 1-2 units and 1-2 bottles of whiskey, our hormone ridden little brains being so feeble.

[quote PattyPan]**@naunet* the report talks about all people and different life stages. There is one line in the 37 page report* which mentions pregnant women and women of childbearing age’ (as a group), clearly it is an awkward phrasing that is aimed at preventing FASD and as women are the only ones who can get pregnant, no I don’t think it’s misogynistic to single women out in that respect [/quote]
Please show me where it suggests men should be banned from drinking.

@naunet because there is less evidence about the impact of male drinking on offspring? The report does talk about the different levels of alcohol-related disease among men and women, higher for men.

[quote PattyPan]**@naunet* the report talks about all people and different life stages. There is one line in the 37 page report* which mentions pregnant women and women of childbearing age’ (as a group), clearly it is an awkward phrasing that is aimed at preventing FASD and as women are the only ones who can get pregnant, no I don’t think it’s misogynistic to single women out in that respect [/quote]
And why don’t you think quality of sperm matters? We know alcohol has a negative impact on sperm, so again, explain why singling women out isn’t misogynistic.

[quote PattyPan]@naunet because there is less evidence about the impact of male drinking on offspring? The report does talk about the different levels of alcohol-related disease among men and women, higher for men.[/quote]
Nope, try again, it’s widely accepted already. And anyway, if all women of childbearing age should be banned, just in case, why does the same not apply to men, just in case?

@Kinsters

Triffid1 that's a realistic assessment of how reports often are tbh! I guess I hold bodies like WHO to higher standards, not sure why though. I'll never forget the project I was once involved in where the partner in charge had had multiple meetings and calls with the client and won a piece of work to do a report on this supposed tax issue they faced. He brought me in to write the report and within 10 minutes I realised the reason they hadn't paid the tax they supposedly owed was because the tax did not exist during the time period in question 🤦🏼‍♀️🤦🏼‍♀️

Its like when I read something about my particular field of expertise in the news and amp like "this is ridiculous and wrong" but never assume that the rest of what they say is just as wrong!

The report I referenced is when I realised that most organisations simply aren't competent, even the ones like WHO That I agree, we instinctively hold to a higher standard. We like to think of lots of super intelligent, thoughtful people with a vocation doing this work but... not so much. Sigh!

The tax thing made me laugh. I've seen similar ridiculous things in my time!

@naunet please show me where it says that for women! Clearly you (and most people on this thread) haven’t read it. Nowhere in the proposed actions does it say ban alcohol for women.

Its like when I read something about my particular field of expertise in the news and amp like "this is ridiculous and wrong" but never assume that the rest of what they say is just as wrong!

This is called the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect and it’s something I think about a lot, since the field I work in is very often misrepresented or badly reported in the media!

Margaret Atwood seems to be very busy sending out new dystopian material at the moment. Someone needs to remind her to send it to her publisher though and not government bodies that are meant to be promoting fairness and equality.

Sinister or just stupidity, who knows anymore?

[quote PattyPan]@naunet please show me where it says that for women! Clearly you (and most people on this thread) haven’t read it. Nowhere in the proposed actions does it say ban alcohol for women.[/quote]
Page 21 of the report "prevention of drinking among pregnant women and women of childbearing age "

cdn.who.int/media/docs/default-source/alcohol/action-plan-on-alcohol_first-draft-final_formatted.pdf?sfvrsn=b690edb0_1&download=true

[quote PattyPan]@naunet please show me where it says that for women! Clearly you (and most people on this thread) haven’t read it. Nowhere in the proposed actions does it say ban alcohol for women.[/quote]
How hard is it to read the OP?

The plan says: "Appropriate attention should be given to prevention of the initiation of drinking among children and adolescents, prevention of drinking among pregnant women and women of childbearing age."

It's chilling. I can't help feeling as though there's a tentative effort to see what level of erosion of women's basic rights can be ushered in through various back doors in recent times.

Certainly seems to be a constant attack on women's freedoms and safeguards these days.

@Naunet @CaribouCarafe yes, it says that in the opening paragraph to action area 2. But in the proposed actions for that area it refers only to pregnancy. So they are not suggesting it as an action at all.

[quote PattyPan]@naunet because there is less evidence about the impact of male drinking on offspring? The report does talk about the different levels of alcohol-related disease among men and women, higher for men.[/quote]
Yes, the report is very clear that men are vastly more likely to be problem drinkers/die because of their drinking. It doesn't go on to recommend that men are one of the "at risk" groups who should be prevented from drinking alcohol. Even though they are clearly more at risk from harm.

Many of us should cut down on alcohol and some of us should avoid it altogether (pregnant women, TTC).

But that's should not must. Women are not merely incubators and do not lose their bodily autonomy simply because they become pregnant (although the way childbirth is dealt with on the NHS does make you wonder if this message is getting through).

Also, many more women are deciding motherhood isn't for them, anyway. No doubt some can't be arsed with the societal notion that the proper role of woman as mother is one of continual and limitless self-sacrifice.

@PattyPan you don't see how it ties into Action 1?

"On the basis of evidence of the nature and magnitude of alcohol-attributable public health problems, advocate for the development and implementation of high-impact strategies, interventions and other actions to prevent and reduce alcohol-related harm. This includes a special emphasis on protecting at risk populations and those affected by the harmful drinking of others, preventing initiation of drinking
among children and adolescents, preventing drinking in pregnancy and preventing fetal alcohol spectrum disorders (FASD)"

@kinsters it doesn’t define at risk at all, so it doesn’t exclude them either. It says the focus should be on at-risk groups and groups whose drinking can harm others (it mentions linking to the violence strategy at a few points). I don’t see how that is contentious.

[quote PattyPan]**@Naunet* @CaribouCarafe* yes, it says that in the opening paragraph to action area 2. But in the proposed actions for that area it refers only to pregnancy. So they are not suggesting it as an action at all.[/quote]
Ahh, I see, you’ve simply decided they don’t mean what they’ve clearly written, and women who believe what they’ve said and find it offensive are the problem?! Yeah again mate, you’re a misogynist 🤷‍♀️