In thinking being a SAHM is work?

[morepizza]

Work is defined as:

noun
noun: work; plural noun: works; plural noun: the works
1 1. 
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

I think this includes SAH parental duties. I know a lot of people don't agree with me. What else would it be called?

Does it matter whether it’s work or not? As with anything, if you enjoy it it isn’t, if you don’t it is. Why all the justifications?

Not sure that any argument can begin with a dictionary definition once you’re past primary school. That’s actually a bit embarrassing. Why not repost with a clear argument? People will be able to engage more.

@Pinuporc

* Ohsugarhoneyicetea

I'm incredulous at all these working parents that just leave their babies at home alone while they go off to work. Do any of them survive?

WOTH parents insisting they do all the same things as SAHP are missing out the portion of the day where they pay someone else to look after their baby or toddler, feed them or change their nappy...because they are working somewhere else to their child. Neither option (imo)is right or wrong but they're not the same.
WOHP are not simultaneously (practically) looking after their child and representing a client in court or teaching a class full of children, performing heart surgery, or whatever their job is.

To be fair a lot of ‘SAHP’ don’t do this either which is why the government funds free nursery hours for children whose parents are on benefits. Nursery really benefits them.

@morepizza I didn't word my point clearly enough - what I mean to say is that I think you're confusing two separate meanings of the word "work". One meaning is the definition you quoted, work in the sense of "oooof climbing that mountain was hard work" and "I'm off to work on my music scales". The other is "work" as in job, or something similar (perhaps doesn't have to be paid, e.g. Volunteer work). People who say that SAHMs don't work do not mean "work" in the first sense of the word. They don't literally think that SAHMs don't move all day or do anything physical or mental to achieved a goal. Of course they don't think that, most even trivial activities that have a goal like washing up or eating dinner are work in this sense.

What people mean when they say that being a SAHM isn't work is something like being a SAHM is less demanding or has a lower social standing or is done for enjoyment or whatever when compared to work (I'm not saying that they are right to say that - but that is what they mean).

Using that definition to settle this debate would be like using it to settle the debate about whether walking up a hill is work. The answer is yes, in the sense that everyone agrees with (that it's a physical activity) and no, in the sense that no one thinks anyway (that it's like a job). Obviously the answer to whether being a SAHM is work in the way that people actually mean it is a lot more difficult to answer than the hill example.

@morepizza

50% of the babies in the nursery where I work have a sahm. Don’t pretend all SAHMs are run ragged doing childcare - many outsource it as soon as possible.

And how would you know that

We kept track of this during Covid because for a while we had to prioritise nursery where both parents worked (key workers) per local authority rules. So many SAHP complained that we soon discovered even the baby room was almost a 50:50 split.

Well I wfh and have to sort DS before and after school as DH works mostly outside the home (wfh once a fortnight).

I also had to homeschool during the last lockdown as well as work full time. DS is 5 so can't be left alone to study.

All parents are working one way or another.
Not sure why OP feels the need to justify her decision to be a SAHP. If you have a partner who facilitates this then you are somewhat privileged

That's not work, it is what you do before and after actual work. Yabu.

@DeflatedGinDrinker

That's not work, it is what you do before and after actual work. Yabu.

Yes and while someone else is at work looking after your kids (if pre school age)

As a sahp I divided up the jobs all week. I put a wash on then went on the school run. I hung the washing then went to baby group. I emptied the dishwasher then played in the garden.

At work I cram all of these thing into two hours after work. All of these jobs needs doing still.

@GintyMcGinty

I don't consider raising my family or doing chores in the house to be 'work' in the same way as having a job.

I've done lots of paid work in commercial kitchens and restaurants, cleaning hotels and hospitals, laundry in a care home, teaching, gardening , running a B+B. Doing any of those jobs is definitely work, and doing them well is a skill to be proud of. I've also raised our children (unpaid) using all the skills acquired from paid work.

@Shirleyphallus

It’s work but it isn’t a job or a career. It’s also a real luxury to be able to dick around from home looking after children than the mental graft of a proper job

🤣🤣🤣 dick around

It’s semantics surely? Childcare is hard work, no doubt about it, but it’s not ‘work’ in the sense of a career or generating income. It’s still a perfectly valid life choice.

I have a 2 and 3 year old. As I was pregnant with the second within a few months (!) I was on mat leave for a really long time and it was HARD. I would struggle to be a full time SAHM now. So in that sense I’d classify it as work, but if asked what I did back then I would have said ‘I’m not working at the moment, I’m a SAHM’ or whatever. I now work part time in a really demanding job and juggling both is a different challenge but I wouldn’t say one is harder than the other - they’re just very different.

@Shirleyphallus

It’s work but it isn’t a job or a career. It’s also a real luxury to be able to dick around from home looking after children than the mental graft of a proper job

I found parenting more mentally challenging than I found my corporate job.

Toddlers irrational nature was an eye opener.

I never I had a work place issue where a co-worker has had a breakdown screaming and flopped limbless on the floor about not getting to name a random house gecko that she saw for about 3 seconds as it scuttled away.
A boss from hell wouldn’t even touch the sides of a toddlers weirdness.

@morepizza

Work is defined as:

noun
noun: work; plural noun: works; plural noun: the works
1 1. 
activity involving mental or physical effort done in order to achieve a purpose or result.

I think this includes SAH parental duties. I know a lot of people don't agree with me. What else would it be called?

What an original thread OP! Did you search Mumsnet for other discussions on this topic prior to posting?

I'm still agog that this poster thinks raising children doesn't require mental graft.

Of course it does. But all (decent) parents do that mental graft of parenting, and some also do the mental graft or work or running or business on top of that work. It's possible to be a good parent and also work, while recognising that parenting is "hard work" but not a "job" or "career" as such. Aaargh this has been done to death on here OP! Google past threads!!

Shirleyphallus
It’s work but it isn’t a job or a career. It’s also a real luxury to be able to dick around from home looking after children than the mental graft of a proper job

I've worked with plenty of people, often parents, who've dicked around when they should have been getting on with their job. Disappearing up the corridor for a chat or taking an extended tea break.

You can't ignore your dc. But useless managers often ignore lazy workers.

"It’s work but it isn’t a job or a career. It’s also a real luxury to be able to dick around from home looking after children than the mental graft of a proper job"

Looking after a child who can have a meltdown at any moment leading to injury to themselves and others is mental graft. It is the sort of mental graft that most professional providers wouldn't be able to cope with ( hence being a sahm).

When I was a sahm I found it easy in that it gave me the freedom that no job has ever given me. I could stay in, or go out, go to toddler groups, go shopping, go to parks, etc. Whatever I fancied.

@frysturkishdelight

As a sahp I divided up the jobs all week. I put a wash on then went on the school run. I hung the washing then went to baby group. I emptied the dishwasher then played in the garden.

At work I cram all of these thing into two hours after work. All of these jobs needs doing still.

Of course they do, but depending on nursery times you might not have breakfast plates. You won't have lunch plates. You might not have dinner plates. You will be changing 8 hours less nappies, 8 hours less childcare, 8 hours less face wiping and hand washing. The house will be tidier and cleaner because you've not been in it all day.

Working mums are aware of the tasks involved with young children as that’s what we do in our non-working time. Who do SAHMs think looks after our children during evenings, weekends and holidays (assuming a typical 9-5 working pattern) ?

Totally accept that having pre-schoolers at home all the time is a drudge but people seem vested in making it out to be the hardest job in the world which it clearly isn’t. Most women take at least 9 months maternity leave per child, most kids go to nursery part time from 3 and then start school at 4. Perhaps many posters on this thread are the tiny time period where it seems all-encompassing but then you get out the other side and realise that a lot of the pressure is self-induced. The expression that work expands to fit the time that you have to do it is very apt. Easy to angst and spend ages on trivia when you don’t have anything else to do.

Easy to angst and spend ages on trivia when you don’t have anything else to do.

What's with the attitude?

I dont agree that looking after children around work and at weekends is the same as all the time. I was very relaxed knowing all their development skills were being covered at nursery and they'd been exposed to social situations, done crafts, heard a story etc so i could just do things that were chilled. I could think they"ve already had a good run around, done creative stuff, sung all the songs, shared equipment etc. Whereas the days at home i had to make sure my child did a bit more rounded stuff. My house was a tip on my non working days in comparison.

It's no wonder (some) men don't appreciate women who've stayed at home to raise their kids when 50% of the women on this thread are saying that, actually, it's piss easy and amounts to nothing more than 'dicking around' all week, watching telly and eating cake at your leisure.

Perhaps it's also the reason why there are so many threads on MN about lazy ass husbands and partners who won't do their fair share at home, even when the woman has a job as well. Probably because 'child work' and 'housework' and 'life admin' is a piece of piss according to some on this thread and plays straight into their hands.

Why are we pitting ourselves against each other like this, trying to outdo each other with who has it worse and who has it harder? You would never see a thread like this about men and I wonder why that is. There's some real resentment and bitterness from both sides here.

The expression that work expands to fit the time that you have to do it is very apt. Easy to angst and spend ages on trivia when you don’t have anything else to do.

I totally agree with MildredPuppy, that making sure the toddler learns concepts like their colours, shapes, numbers, letters, etc; working on their table top activities to improve concentration and fine motor skills and taking them to activities to practise social skills (ie scaffolding child development ready for school) is not trivia, because you don't have anything else to do!

Outsourcing baby care may be a thing now; but when mine were little, there were a few women, who sent their child to nursery, because they worked full time; but the majority of the women around me, looked after their children full time, until probably secondary school - nobody dreamt of sending the baby to nursery for me time.