Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

Ah, presumed the thread was about the Euros as the first game was today. Was wondering why everyone was being so nasty about people flying flags.....

I'm just curious as to what you're trying to achieve by flying the flag. I can only imagine you want strangers to know you're proud of being born in England, but why do you care if random strangers passing your house know you're English? What's the goal/aim? I cannot imagine ever thinking that strangers or my neighbours give the tiniest of shits that I'm proud of being born in Wales. It is the least important, interesting and relevant thing about me. I just don't know why people expect others to care to be honest.

I don't fly flags. I've been known to wear a rose on Shakespeare's birthday, that's as far as I'll go.

The England flag but not only the England flag is associated with horrific mostly male violence for hundreds of years. Sue me.

If you think of Greek or American or Irish flags, for example, or Scottish or Welsh - They’re positive and exuberant and welcoming

What makes these flags 'exuberant'? What makes the Union Jack 'non-exuberant'?

So much prejudice on this thread, it's surreal

I do a lot of caravanning and the flags I see most fkying outside caravans are Welsh tbh. So Welsh people must be proud of being Welsh I guess, and want to let others know they are Welsh. We do live quite near the Welsh border, maybe that's why.

Lower classes means living below the poverty line

Class and money aren't the same thing, for various reasons.

I am Irish and I would say it's very rare to see people flying the Irish flag here. You might see it for a big sporting event but it would be much more common to see county or club flags here for GAA ( Irish football and hurling).
It's very different in Northern Ireland, I was shocked by all the flags when I visited there. It made me feel quite uncomfortable actually.
When I have visited England I noticed a lot of Union Jack flags and bunting. I remember commenting to my husband that it would be unusual to see that in Ireland.
I love being Irish, I am proud of Ireland. I think it's great to be proud of where you are from but patriotism can be a bad thing when you see your nation and people as better than others.

@StoneofDestiny

campervan69

Generally sticking your national flag up when they are in a national tournament is perceived very differently to flying it every day, particularly in areas where divisions irate encouraged between different racial groups.
Not that many years ago I drove through Burnley, Blackburn, Oldham and Bradford for a variety of work related issues - and the fly flying message was perfectly clear - especially as many were emblazoned with the EDL logo, and bizarrely Red Hand of Ulster. There was no national football tournament.

I drive through an area like this, it is not a 'positive' feeling. They are not just on houses but tied to lamp posts etc.

It's not only England. The same thing has happened in some other countries (seen it in Sweden in recent years, to name one), and it's ridiculous.

Everyone should be allowed to take pride in their homeland, and flying the flag is part of that.

I don't get it.

My youngest DD didn't want to colour an England flag for today because she was concerned it could be seen as racist.

Yet every other country flies their flags with pride??

Why is this??

Actually, I lived in France for the third year of my degree and I never saw a French flag anywhere. (I still wouldn’t be entirely confident of picking the right flag for France in a quiz about national flags.)

Same in other countries I’ve visited, though as those were shorter visits I wouldn’t read too much into that.

I see far more flags in the UK actually. It isn’t something that means anything to me, although I do understand it being a thing during major sporting competitions.

@cricketmum84

I don't get it.

My youngest DD didn't want to colour an England flag for today because she was concerned it could be seen as racist.

Yet every other country flies their flags with pride??

Why is this??

They don't. As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread.

I think the answer 'cricketmum* is given throughout the thread.

Because of the national front & colonialism?

@SoapboxFox

Lower classes means living below the poverty line

Class and money aren't the same thing, for various reasons.

What’s your point?

My youngest DD didn't want to colour an England flag

I don't understand what point is being made here exactly

Perhaps DCs are being badly influenced at school?

DCs saying something doesn't automatically legitimise the argument

I used to have the Saltire flying in my garden ( took it down lately because we refurbished our garden). I was born in England. I was in England a couple of weeks ago, and I quite like to see the St George flag flying. I would rather see that than the Union Flag, which locally to me is a sign of far right patriotism.

1. Because it has been hyjacked by bigots who hanker for the days of empire.

1. Because so many atrocities have been commited under it.

The Irish tricolour is flown by a nation that was oppressed under the British Empire.

@thepeopleversuswork

I think the US patriotism is quite a different beat and you can't really compare the two. The US was constructed in order to give emigrants from Europe a place of haven and more recently has become a kind of 'ideal' republic: a self-styled beacon of democracy. I happen to think this concept is flawed and very discredited, and I find US patriotism fairly unpleasant. But the concept of the US is fundamentally anti-racist. It's about where you've got to, not where you're from.

English patriotism is around the idea that the English (as distinct from the Scots, Welsh, Irish and anyone else) are superior. Given the long history of English colonialism (both of our ''home' nations and those further afield) and the more recent appropriation by the far right, this can't exist in a vacuum. It may be a nice idea in theory to embrace pride in being English but at the moment the associations with domination, thuggery and bigotry are too thick.

I have less of a problem with the Union Jack (although that's also problematic and rapidly on its way to becoming an anachronism).

As a separate point, like others on this thread I've never really understood the concept of nationalism. Being proud of your country is harmless enough but the idea that an accident of your birth would give you any innate superiority over someone else who happened to be born on a separate piece of soil across the water is just plain stupid. I'd find anyone who wanted to celebrate being English with these two points in mind a bit questionable.

I'm sorry I can't seem to quote part of what you said thepeopleversuswork but your first part about the US being built as a nation to give emigrants a chance and anti racist? It's a country built on we're white so better than the native people so let's wipe them out! There's nothing anti racist about how it was set up.

Other countries had empires, and don’t constantly beat themselves up about them. And I don’t suppose the French or Spanish, say, habitually sneer at anyone flying their own flag.

There’s a particular brand of self-loathing that is peculiarly English.

Scottish independence (which would be daft - exhibit 1: Brexit) wouldn't mean the Union Jack got automatically abolished.

That's the tl/dr version. Full version is:

...The UK is a unitary state. Although it was formed by a couple of unions (1707 Eng + Sco = GB, 1801 GB + Ire = UK) it doesn't follow that Scotland leaving would 'undo' the either of these unions. It would mean that a new state was carved out of the UK's previous territory, a case in point being Ireland in 1922.

If Scotland became independent, the starting point would be that Scotland would choose a national flag that would be recognised by other independent states. This would probably be the St Andrew's Cross. The remaining UK would retain its existing flag, ie, the Union Jack unless / until it decided to alter it.

Another case in point: the UJ still appears on the flags of now independent former colonies.

There are many reasons why it's been kept, but one of them is that the UJ is a pretty striking flag and the proposed replacements just not as good, aesthetically.

This is such a interesting thread. I come from a country who is very proud of their flag and almost everyone from my home country will have a flag at home and display it on public holidays or important events and even those of us who live abroad will still have a flag displayed somewhere in our homes because it's one flag that unites everyone from left to right, religious to non religious or whatever/whoever you are or whatever you believe in.

Today when I saw the English flags, I feel really bad I must admit but I immediately associated it with drunk hooligans only because these fans were walking like zombies in broad daylight screaming "come on En-ger-land" which isn't bad because that's what fans do right? I also remember the times when Brexit was campaigned, some neighbourhoods who felt strongly for Brexit hanged English flags in front of their homes which made a lot of people uncomfortable as it was hijacked by the far right/EDL. When I see an English flag, I automatically imagine it's someone drunk and violent telling me to get out of their country and stop taking their jobs or if I see someone wearing an England bikini or shorts on holiday, I automatically think they're chavs as I associate it with drunks, hooligans, wags and EDL and loud fights.

I really feel sad for the English flag as I believe it deserves more respect and it should be handled and carried without the use of alcohol because alcohol is your worst enemy on international platforms or as soon as you step foot into another country. If you can't handle yourself when drunk, don't drink because you are embarrassing yourself and your country.

Yep.

I'm in NZ and it's quite common for businesses to fly the flag, and to see it flying from houses too. A bit less common than 20 years ago, but still quite normal.

Schools also fly it, and it's a complete non-issue, despite this country's acknowledged history of colonial oppression.

Why would I want or need to fly a flag? I'm English, in England, why the need for advertisement? And why would it be anything to be either proud or ashamed of? It's an accident of birth, not a personal achievement. I don't mind people showing sporting allegiances per se, but living in an area where 95% plus would be supporting England anyway, it would hardly need to be something that needed to be demonstated to my neighbours.

We have the British and American flags outside our house. The only time we haven’t flown them was during the Pineapple Express of early 2020 as they likely would have blown away.