Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

@Waspsarearseholes

That was really well said.

Because only one of the home nations had racists?
No, @JudgeJ. But none of the other home nations flags is associated with right wing groups and racism.

@cansu

Other than to signal where competitors are from at an event, I can see no reason for displaying one. What do you think it should signify OP? What is love of one's country? Is it liking the land, the rivers, the towns, the people? Is it saying that this country is somehow better than another country, simply because I happen to be born here rather than there? It seems to me that mindless flag waving is pretty odd. Other than to show support for a team or sports person, it seems odd.

Do you feel like this about every group you belong to? Do you feel loyalty at work or neighbourly to your local community? Do you connect with others in the same profession or career as you? Or do you feel that having a shared interest with others would make you feel that you are better than others in the next town or a different profession etc.?

What do you mean? I like where I work. I am supportive to my colleagues and to the organisation. Does this mean that I need to wave a flag and declare some kind of allegiance? No, it doesn't. Having a shared interest in a profession or neighbourhood doesn't need to be proclaimed. The things I say and do show my allegiance or preference for those things.

1. Because I'm not English.
2. The English Flag and Union Jack have been hijacked by the far right and have pretty odious connotations to many of us (sad, but true)
3. The English flag and Union Jack would devalue your home - certainly make the neighbourhood less attractive to many purchasers
4. Boris Johnson and the EDL have made both flags totally toxic to many

PS - lived in many areas across the UK - Yorkshire neighbours flew the Yorkshire Flag (no probs), and in other areas 'regional/county flags were up in a few places, one even had the New Zealand flag up every time rugby was on - no negative connotations at all. Think England needs a new flag - maybe one the racist right wing nationalists wouldn't touch with a bargepole. The Union Jack is heading for the bin soon anyway.

Because the use of it has been hijacked mostly by the far right

There's no hijacking. It's just people -shock horror- flying the flag of their own country.

Never mind, there are plenty of symbols to be 'deconstructed' and 'resignified' (i.e. destroyed) with which to 're-educate' the gullible

Having a shared interest in a profession or neighbourhood doesn't need to be proclaimed

The problem is not that some don't proclaim it, they don't seem to feel it either

The hatred of the English lower classes is visceral, yet completely acceptable

Wow.

I certainly dislike racists and the EDL mentality where people deliberately fly the English flag in areas where there is high immigration. Much the same in areas of NI where flag waving is territory marking and underscoring and promoting division. Nothing to do with pride - everything to do with division.

Not sure what 'the English Lower class' actually means. Lower in what? Sounds positively medieval! (not to say insulting).

Livelovebehappy, MissConduct et al, where did I say patriotism was a bad thing?

I thought we were talking about flags and flagpoles here. There are many, many ways to show your love for your country and more importantly countrymen (and women) and running a flag up a pole comes way down my list. It doesn't benefit anyone as far as I can see, except the flag makers and the tradesmen who put the poles up.

As far as my US example, it was an observation my DD passed on casually while out walking in her area (prosperous neighbourhood, small town, deepest south) and I pass no judgement and claim no wider significance.

I do think that Trump-style patriotism is what led to the Jan 6th insurrection and we'd better pass over what sort of flags were seen there and how the national flag, or its pole, was used on a Capitol police officer who luckily escaped with his life.

I tend to evaluate people by what they do rather than what symbols they display, but that's just me.

The Union Jack is heading for the bin soon anyway

Why, because you say so?

@cansu

What do you mean? I like where I work. I am supportive to my colleagues and to the organisation. Does this mean that I need to wave a flag and declare some kind of allegiance? No, it doesn't. Having a shared interest in a profession or neighbourhood doesn't need to be proclaimed. The things I say and do show my allegiance or preference for those things.

I mean communities. Do you recognise and feel allegiance to any communities or do you feel that by doing so, you automatically disparage others.

@StoneofDestiny

The hatred of the English lower classes is visceral, yet completely acceptable

Wow.

I certainly dislike racists and the EDL mentality where people deliberately fly the English flag in areas where there is high immigration. Much the same in areas of NI where flag waving is territory marking and underscoring and promoting division. Nothing to do with pride - everything to do with division.

Not sure what 'the English Lower class' actually means. Lower in what? Sounds positively medieval! (not to say insulting).

Lower classes means living below the poverty line.

At the end of the day (as with everything in England) it's a class thing. The working class are quite happy to fly the flag and the middle class are quite happy to despise them for doing so.

@FrankButchersDickieBow

Because it is tied up with connotations of racism due to parties like the English Defence League etc., who use it as their emblem.

This. It's associated with the far right, racism, football violence and toxic patriotism.

I judge people who fly them, perhaps unfairly, especially outside of football tournaments.

It’s used in a very different way to the way flags are used elsewhere. If you think of Greek or American or Irish flags, for example, or Scottish or Welsh - They’re positive and exuberant and welcoming - celebrating the excitement of a fair competition or event. The England flag has been appropriated as a global symbol of football hooliganism and far right activism and this goes back to the 80s. It is perceived to symbolise aggression, racism, and violence. As an example, many of the very people waving the England flag at football matches are the same people booing the taking of the knee and England’s black players.

‘booing the taking of the knee and England’s black players’

These are not the same thing. One is racist and the other is not.

I am a right old mix of nationalities, as is DH, 2 of our 3 DC are white British looking and one isn't although they all have the same heritage. The DC's partners include people from black African and from East Asian backgrounds.
We have a flag flying.
We are proud of this country, compared to other places I think here is generally a nice place to be.
DD lived as a nanny in Italy for a year and found it incredibly and overtly racist.

It is unfair to judge people for supporting England by flying the flag. How do you know their motivation behind doing so? Its fun, celebratory to support your country in tournaments. Nothing more sinister than that.

It's like saying all Muslims are terrorists. Ridiculous. Dont let the bad actions of a few extremists tar the entire group.

Lower classes means living below the poverty line

Well 'class' has nothing to do with it then.

Strange that many here have missed the point of the cross of at george.

1. We English are and I hate to admit it jealous of the other home nations and their patriotism without problem. The English apparently enslaved half the world, murdered millions and stole shitloads...we did but there were scots, Welsh and Irish people doing it alongside us.
2. we felt that supporting Britain was paramount.
3. the union flag was hijacked by the far right. Look at games from the 80s and you see England fans with a union flag
4. it's seen as chavvy. I remember being in sidmouth for a world cup to be told oh no we never show football in several pubs
5. it's linked with football hooligans

I've got the cross of st George flying proud. Mind you I am a white, middle aged,working class ex football hooligan chav

The Union Jack is heading for the bin soon anyway

Why, because you say so?

Well - when Scotland becomes independent, the Scottish bit of it will have to be removed. (Though many people see the Union Jack as the English Flag anyway - and now, the Tory flag)

At the end of the day (as with everything in England) it's a class thing. The working class are quite happy to fly the flag and the middle class are quite happy to despise them for doing so

Well, plenty of well off English people fly the flag - flag poles in many wealthy English village gardens. Now since Johnson dictated his party members parade Trump like with the Union Jack in the background, lots of Tory councillors fly them at home too.

Tbf, I've only ever seen extensive flag flying in the USA, which is kinf od renowned for its "patriotism" and the way it teaches kids to love the flag.

I've lived in two other countries outside the UK and in neither did I see any greater frequency of flag-flying than I ever did in England. I think it's a misconception some people have that other countries do that a lot, probably because because they see it a bit during the world cup or something. I've never lived in or spent a significant amount of time in any country (apart from the USA) where people fly their country's flag on a day-to-day basis.

It's more common if you move abroad, for example. Which is understandable. You're more likely to feel a pride and a desire to remember where you came from if you move to England from another country, so you're more likely to stick a flag in your window.

campervan69

Generally sticking your national flag up when they are in a national tournament is perceived very differently to flying it every day, particularly in areas where divisions irate encouraged between different racial groups.
Not that many years ago I drove through Burnley, Blackburn, Oldham and Bradford for a variety of work related issues - and the fly flying message was perfectly clear - especially as many were emblazoned with the EDL logo, and bizarrely Red Hand of Ulster. There was no national football tournament.

It's not that it's been hijacked by the right at all, it's the left who have always moved away from it and denigrated it. The liberal views in opposition to nationalism have caused certain groups to view it as negative. Utter nonsense, there should be more pride in the flag and country our ancestors fought to protect at the same time as being global citizens.