Why are we embarrassed to fly the English flag?

[Dannyandsandy]

Just that really. I’m English but grew up in Ireland and everyone Irish is delighted to fly their flag with pride. I’ve travelled extensively around the world and have seen the same in other countries. To do so in England? Well you’re utter scum. Why?

It’s really sad. There are SO many countries in Europe that have colonised other countries. Countries in every continent have gone to war. There are racists and extremists (left and right) in pretty much every country in the world. I’m mixed race and from what I’ve seen in the news and on social media, racism is worse in the US, mainland Europe and Australia.

Ironic really that those proud of the St George flag are being slated as being intolerant of others.

Time we took it back from the far right and be proud to be English. After all, we are a packed country so clearly people want to be here.

@MrsFin

I think it’s more common to see the union flag 🇬🇧 on buildings and out and about.

Only in England, where most people don't really understand the difference between being English and being British.

Are you sure most people don’t understand?

There is a real anti-English climate atm. It is really anti-English working class though. And it seems to be among the English middle class rather than anyone else.

it is just about where your mother was when you were born

it's weird to be patriotic to a random piece of earth you happened to be born on

I find those who display such level of detachment and contempt towards their land and fellow nationals, very untrustworthy

There is a real anti-English climate atm

I don't see any 'climate' amongst the majority of the population. Amongst certain posters on MN, yes, definitely

It does all sound a bit snobby if I'm honest.

Because the English or British flag are shameful

You can have too much patriotism

Really? How so?

Mustlovegin, I feel detachment but no contempt to 'my land', am I untrustworthy? And am not sure what you mean about 'fellow nationals', is that just the ones born here?

@mustlovegin

You can have too much patriotism

Really? How so?

An excess of patriotism causes people to be insular and suspicious of cultures foreign to them.

HTH

Because of the tendencies of lots of the people who do fly it

Those who don't want to fly it or who outright vandalise it (e.g. incidents at Pimlico Academy) also have 'tendencies' and could be said to fit a certain 'stereotype' right?

Are we allowed to stereotype people anymore? Thought that was not PC

Other than to signal where competitors are from at an event, I can see no reason for displaying one. What do you think it should signify OP?
What is love of one's country? Is it liking the land, the rivers, the towns, the people? Is it saying that this country is somehow better than another country, simply because I happen to be born here rather than there? It seems to me that mindless flag waving is pretty odd. Other than to show support for a team or sports person, it seems odd.

mustlovegin
What are you on about? How does a dislike of waving flags show a contempt and detachment? I can be a good citizen of my country, respect the law and its culture without waving a flag around.

Rule Britannia!! The normal people aren't sorry

Where are you from? My parents are Irish and I have visited grandparents in Ireland twice a year since birth (from England) and don't remember any great proliferation of flags other than hurling (county) related colours. Not in recent years certainly. I now live in NI and dear god do people love a flag.

I'm not embarrassed. Always have the bunting out for big sporting events, VE Day, Quern's jubilees, riyal weddings erm...

@Sn0tnose

Off the top of my head (and I'm happy to be corrected) I can't think of any other country where you see so many flags in so many places all year round.

Wales. Dragons everywhere.

No there aren't! Not in my experience and I've lived in different areas of Wales all my life.

I don't 'get' national 'pride' either. But I do like the dragon

Because the use of it has been hijacked mostly by the far right.

It's unfortunate that those who love England and want to fly the flag are seen as racists/thugs but this is exactly where we're at. The far right have appropriated the cross of St George as a symbol for their bigotry and xenophobia and racism. They don't even appear to realise that George himself was a foreigner, so what does the flag actually mean to them? I'm Welsh and there is a huge sense of patriotism here but that, too, makes me cringe. I love our flag and am proud of my heritage, in the same way everybody else should be proud of their heritage, and on rugby days I'm supporting Wales as loudly as the next person, but I've never, ever felt the need to fly a flag from my house. I guess it could be down to feeling secure enough in my heritage and not feeling it's under threat or that I must let every random person who passes my house know that I'm Welsh. There's a difference between being quietly proud of and secure in who you are and feeling the need to advertise it so publically.
Incidentally, I know the history of the Union flag and why Wales isn't distinctly represented on it, and the bloody uproar it would create with the very suggestion of altering it, but it means absolutely nothing to me. Wales isn't represented on that flag so I don't see it as representing all the home nations at all, because it absolutely doesn't.

@Alann01

Rule Britannia!! The normal people aren't sorry

Conflating Britain and England again. Anyone who talks about ‘normal people’ with regard to opinion is a bit suspect I feel. Why is your opinion ‘normal’ and other people’s is what? Deviant? Weird? Subnormal?

Newrumpus

MrsFin
I think it’s more common to see the union flag 🇬🇧 on buildings and out and about.

Only in England, where most people don't really understand the difference between being English and being British.
Are you sure most people don’t understand?

There is a real anti-English climate atm. It is really anti-English working class though. And it seems to be among the English middle class rather than anyone else.

I competed agree.
The hatred of the English lower classes is visceral, yet completely acceptable.

@Waspsarearseholes 👏 👏 👏
I also agree with you on wasps.

The hatred of the English lower classes is visceral No, @AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken it’s not the ‘lower classes’, it’s English racists and those who think they are superior to everyone else, home nations and otherwise. Even then I do t hate them, I hate the viewpoint. And that’s what I see in other posts too.
Don’t conflate ‘lower class’ with yob, racist, thug. Shows your own contempt.

I think the US patriotism is quite a different beat and you can't really compare the two. The US was constructed in order to give emigrants from Europe a place of haven and more recently has become a kind of 'ideal' republic: a self-styled beacon of democracy. I happen to think this concept is flawed and very discredited, and I find US patriotism fairly unpleasant. But the concept of the US is fundamentally anti-racist. It's about where you've got to, not where you're from.

English patriotism is around the idea that the English (as distinct from the Scots, Welsh, Irish and anyone else) are superior. Given the long history of English colonialism (both of our ''home' nations and those further afield) and the more recent appropriation by the far right, this can't exist in a vacuum. It may be a nice idea in theory to embrace pride in being English but at the moment the associations with domination, thuggery and bigotry are too thick.

I have less of a problem with the Union Jack (although that's also problematic and rapidly on its way to becoming an anachronism).

As a separate point, like others on this thread I've never really understood the concept of nationalism. Being proud of your country is harmless enough but the idea that an accident of your birth would give you any innate superiority over someone else who happened to be born on a separate piece of soil across the water is just plain stupid. I'd find anyone who wanted to celebrate being English with these two points in mind a bit questionable.