AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

Brilliant outcome!

Transmen are female.

Not really though. As we are frequently told "nobody checks your birth certificate before you use the loo". In reality I expect transmen would not be challenged. TW I think would also not be challenged if they were not trying to provoke a reaction.

Nothing tit for tat about it. If the campaign is for single sex then that is universal. Its a confusing message otherwise

No, it's not a confusing message. As the unacceptable risks present with biological males using women's spaces are clearly not the same risks (to men) when the other way round. I think there is a level of tit for tat there, even if you don't want to acknowledge that.

Despite that, it's not my call anyway. It's down to men. I suspect a third space would remove all these issues and whataboutery though. Problem solved.

I actually don't think transmen should be in male facilities. I think my husband and son are entitled to privacy and dignity.

But it's obviously not a danger to them, which is why it's an afterthought. I can't force transmen to consider their own safety, I can only encourage them.

Sorry, the cat posted that....

Transmen are female. Some may wish to use female facilities, in the case of prisons there's no possibility at the moment of a TM being permitted to move to a male prison estate because of the risks to them.

But it's up to male people to work out what they want and need out of their single sex spaces, not female people. We're talking about female people and we're talking about sex based needs specific only to female people that make mixed sex spaces inaccessible. Those same needs don't apply to male people in the same way.

Waves to 🐈

Single sex is fine by me. I am quite happy to share space with transmen, as they are female.

@BlueLipstickRocks

If youre going to campaign for single sex spaces on the basis of an immutability of biological sex then transmen dont get to use male spaces.

Transmen don't pose a risk to men though. They are much more likely in general to be at risk from men. So whilst I think it is for men to decide, your response seems a little bit tit for tat and petty. My concerns are for the safeguards of women and children. We don't know which born males are safe and who are not. Which is why women need separate space.

To deny transmen entry as some kind of spite retaliation makes me think that you really haven't understood the concerns of women at all. In a bit disappointed in you Blue really. I thought that you were better than that.*

Nothing tit for tat about it. If the campaign is for single sex then that is universal. Its a confusing message otherwise.

All the claims of immutability about biological sex and single sex spaces are rendered meaningless when appended with "but of course we dont mean transmen".

But we don't segregate on the basis of sex as a random reason. It's not like segregating on the colour of your hair. There is a reason.

Men are he oppressor class. Men commit 98% of all sex crime, 90% of all violent crime. A huge proportion of women have suffered from sexual harassment and sexual violence at the hands of men.

We are not segregating by sex for an arbitrary reason. Therefore there is no symmetry to it.

But, you're using it as an argument, to still constrain women's choice.

The issue is a single sex space for women. Where transmen go, is a different issue.

Women need safety away from men. There is no vice versa to be had.

Strewth. We are supposed to sort out where women go, transwomen go, and transmen.

No thanks.

@WoolOfBat

Blue, I am so sorry, this must be awful for you. I do understand that your world must feel so uncertain right now.

I am one of the women who always thought that toilets were fine to share with trans women who were post-op. No problem. I do not want to give consent for others though.

What I have found horrific in this debate is the amount of people with a fetish who are trying to crawl under the trans umbrella. Jessica Yaniv (suing women for not wanting to touch their balls and fantasising about helping girls with their tampons), the person tweeting a picture in a gimp suit from the toilets at NSPCC, the transwomen tweeting and laughing about how women didn’t sit down on the toilet and what sound their wee made, the sexual assault of a young girl by a trans woman in the pubic toilet, Karen White, the list goes on and on and on.

I understand that there is a group of trans women who are post op, dysphoric and just want to live their lives and I feel deeply for them. But I have no idea how to tell them apart from the absolute creeps who are trying to use some made up trans identity to get access to women’s spaces.

As a woman, I have to prioritise women and girls above born males. I am sorry but we need a period where only natal females are allowed in female spaces to find out how to tell transwomen apart from people pretending to be trans.

Excellent post!

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

But *@CorvusPurpureus* I think what has happened in the past is no funding has been available to make said changes. Money that could have been going towards making places truly inclusive (I'm not just talking about trans, some places for example have no lift for disability/pram Access)has been squandered on trying to bully women to accepting men in their spaces rather than providing adequate provision. So the gym in question would have to weigh up if it was cost effective to do so. As female socialisation teaches us to suck it up, the majority did and those fringe women that couldn't do that quietly dropped off the radar.

{

@BlueLipstickRocks

Once again, our space -celebratory this time - has been invaded with an entitled “What about meeeeeee?”

Always has to be someone derail discussions with comments like that. Instead of getting involved in discussions you reinforce the problem. Nothing was hijacked - there was a natural evolution in the discussion but of course that has to be my fault. Most threads when they are hundreds of posts in have moved on and no-one is blamed for that. But then I clearly satisfy a confirmation bias.

If you want changes in law that discussion needs to take place. When the objection has been that women were not consulted where men took a lead do you consider the way forward is that transsexuals are not consulted and women should dictate the solution?

Again, you keep insisting that we must uphold the law and not remove your 'rights'. We actually need to uphold the law and maintain our own rights. You speak much of being a 'legal female'. But the law does not allow for you to be treated as a female in all circumstances - I really am not trying to offend you. We are simply setting out those circumstances and reclaiming our spaces and our rights. Much has been said of third spaces - now you must campaign for those - we will support you. But our spaces are no longer available. We have said time and time again that we want our single sex spaces to be respected. In all circumstances, toilets, healthcare settings, refuges, awards, changing rooms, all women shortlists, girl guides, sports etc. Your response is to keep asking 'what about me?' You want us to accept that you are different from other males because you have a diagnosis and a certificate and have had reassignment surgery. But the problem is BlueLipstick, we are not allowed to see evidence of this? And I don't want my daughter and granddaughter in a position where they have to consider asking for it. You are persistent in your 'right' to our spaces because you are in possession of a GRC. We do not agree. A lot of us are never going to agree. Unfortunately, you cannot put the toothpaste back in the tube - women are no longer going to tolerate our spaces and rights being removed from us by stealth. The GRA was poor poor law - I will join any campaign the works towards its repeal. Where that leaves you, I don't know. I'm not saying I don't care - but I care more about my daughter and granddaughter. I will campaign with you for a third space along with a way of policing single sex spaces. That is the only way forward. There is no discussion to be had in my view. Just like there was no discussion when our rights were given away. Your bike if you like.

This is the thing isn't it?

The conflict seems to be between those saying add all the facilities you want, have some things that are unisex/gender neutral and have some that are single sex, that's great. Everyone's needs met.

And those who insist that the single sex facilities can't exist for anyone, and those whose needs can't be met in mixed sex facilities.... oh well.

The argument for third spaces is never going to win. There simply is too few people. There's an awful lot of people claiming transphobia on the issue. It escapes me why self contained unisex spaces aren't being pursued instead of third spaces

Women are 51% of the population. There are not too few people to campaign for it. You just don't want it.

There's an awful lot of people claiming transphobia on the issue. It escapes me why self contained unisex spaces aren't being pursued instead of third spaces

If self contained unisex spaces are possible to achieve then third spaces are possible to achieve.

It's interesting to reflect why there can be no solution that allows female people to retain a single sex space of their own even after everyone else is provided for.

@Artichokeleaves

There's an awful lot of people claiming transphobia on the issue. It escapes me why self contained unisex spaces aren't being pursued instead of third spaces

If self contained unisex spaces are possible to achieve then third spaces are possible to achieve.

It's interesting to reflect why there can be no solution that allows female people to retain a single sex space of their own even after everyone else is provided for.

Because it's the women who are necessary, not the space.

I think having a judgment which enables that business owner to say: 'The law says that it's reasonable for this group of my customers to believe that sex is immutable, & to request single sex stuff, so I'm going to provide it', is going to help.

I agree. If there is no appetite for it, then it won't happen.

For example Women only swim sessions are very popular.

If it's just a case of service providers not wanting to do it, then we will find that out. I personally believe they have been given the impression that they are not allowed to segregate by sex.

Maya's judgment has meant that there is now some legitimate weight behind requests for sex segregation. A service provider would have to run counter to that now, which is a little different from claiming to be on the right side of history due to inclusion.

Jessica Yaniv is, of course, a post-op transwoman.

Much has been said of third spaces - now you must campaign for those - we will support you.

No actually I don't need to.

Transsexuals campaigned and got certain rights. What you're asking is that I campaign again because you don't like those rights. You want me to campaign for rights that do not meet my needs and push me into the trans umbrella alongside the transgender masses.

If you disagree with the law as it stands and wish for it to change in your favour you cannot ask me to do it for you.

Jessica Yaniv is, of course, a post-op transwoman.

Jessica Yaniv is most certainly not.

Then what are they. As far as anyone is aware they have had the surgery

Jessica has plastered their surgery all over Twitter. Actual photographs.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Much has been said of third spaces - now you must campaign for those - we will support you.

No actually I don't need to.

Transsexuals campaigned and got certain rights. What you're asking is that I campaign again because you don't like those rights. You want me to campaign for rights that do not meet my needs and push me into the trans umbrella alongside the transgender masses.

If you disagree with the law as it stands and wish for it to change in your favour you cannot ask me to do it for you.

Except you kind of do. Women have said no. You just have trouble hearing it. You campaigned and you were given certain rights yes, but those rights do not extend to all situations and it disadvantaged women and led to the mess we now have.. I absolutely do disagree with the law as it stands at the moment and will join any campaign for it to be changed. I do not expect you to campaign with me - because it would disadvantage you - in your mind. Just like your rights trampled all over mine and I will not campaign for you to keep them.

The other inconvenient truth is that, in practice, organisations & services that act as if 'TWAW' do not differentiate between you & the 'transgender masses' you refer to, Blue, because nowhere is allowed to ask to see evidence of your GRC. & they certainly can't ask you to prove whether you've had surgery.

So you can't retain your (& presumably Yaniv's) believed entitlement to female spaces whilst expecting them to exclude anyone who says they are a transwoman.

That is the current position that you are relying on to cover your 'right' to enter female spaces.

& unfortunately, shining bright sunlight on that has inclined many women to feel that the only place we can draw the line is between the sexes.

Not everywhere, but when single sex provision is important.

Except you kind of do.
Women have said no.
You just have trouble hearing it.

"Women" have not said no. Some women have said no. Plenty have said "yes". Indeed I have enough conversations encouraging women to object to self ID and pointing out why its dangerous. I dont have trouble hearing it in the slightest - but on the whole all I ever get from women is overwhelming support in every area of my life and its only small pockets that hold such an absolutist position. Youre asking me to adopt a very strict position that is not a consensus view.

Just as some men have said no to changes in legislation supprting women but rights were won as they should be. The fact is that the majority have indicated support for post op transsexuals but objected to self ID. There are groups of men that object to womens rights. If they said they were going to campaign to have equality removed and by the way in the meantime would you mind staying at home and as a wife and mother whilst they campaigned because women in the workplace disadvantages them what would you say? Im pretty sure the reply would end in "off". It is hardly unreasonable that when I am asked to voluntarily surrender my rights by a subset of women and to chose to disavantage myself until you can get the law to change entirely in your favour with no compromise whatsoever that Im going to respectfully decline.

I am not the enemy. Post op TS people have been actively involved in supporting women against self ID. It feels that now self ID has been defeated we have outlived our usefulness. A TS person testified to support Maya. TS people (myself included) made submissions directly to partliamentary committees looking into self ID. We are not the enemy you think we are.

And this ruling isnt the slam dunk some are claiming. It allows you to hold a certain belief without fear of repercussions. It doesnt validate said belief. It also specifically said in the 62 page ruling that to express such a belief could still be considered harassment.

It may surprise you to know that for every negative comment relating to post op transsexuals made there is typically a slew of private messages from women offering their support and describing their fear of saying so publically because they are worried about the reaction from the few.

I dont speak for all transsexuals. I most certainly dont represent transgender. I dont speak for men. But with all respect you dont speak for all women and you dont get to decide what the ultimate law will be. And its a safe bet that any law that comes in will involve compromise and give and take. Likely things I dont agree with, likely things you dont. You dont get to keep trying until you get everything the way you want.