AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

Many trans people have said they do not want unisex places For a number of reasons.

But, in terms of the provider, I would imagine this was the ideal solution. It's unarguable, really.

Validation purposes is not a good reason, neither is fear of assault. Because it would be used by both sexes, and families. Like a family changing village at the swimming baths.

It would solve so many different problems, I can imagine service providers breathing a sigh of relief, that it solves the entire issue of who gets access to single sex provision.

If only Stonewall had endorsed this option, we wouldn't be in this situation.

Hopefully, as their credibility gets further on the mind, this solution will gain traction.

*undermined!

Blue I am not dismissing your experience

But it’s not the same as mine being born female. You will not have been sexualised from a young age as many of us have (way before puberty) by many men and sadly boys not just this that sown of us have been sexually abused by

I couldn’t walk to school at 13 without getting leering looks and comments. It’s everyday sexism that is often harassment and worse daily that so many of us have had to deal with because we are female and we were girls when this started not mature women

We learn or many of us have how to try and protect ourselves, other girls/woman (this always moves me how we do this it’s like we go into protective mode by nature) and navigate situations where we sense we may be in danger from a young age

I don’t have to be on my guard in female only spaces

Whether one is biologically female or perceived by society as female the attitudes are the same.

Attitudes maybe, but the difference in strength between biological males and biological females puts one of those groups on the back foot immediately.

I couldn’t walk to school at 13 without getting leering looks and comments.

Same. So many incidents that happened to me from adult males starting from around age 11. And women's spaces were clearly defined and protected back then. I can't have things made even more unsafe for women and girls. Anyone with an ounce of decency needs to understand this. I'm sure you are one of the 'good' ones Blue. Who isn't a risk. But how can we tell you from someone who isn't? That's the problem. That's why we need a workable solution that meets everyone's needs. And pushing for third spaces might seem impossible. But people have achieved more than this when something is really important and they put their minds to it. And this can be achieved too.

That’s what I struggle with why can’t our fears and concerns be accepted and respected

Our feelings based on what for many of us is through experience is dismissed

Rights are not gained through consent. Were there consent then rights are probably not needed. Rights are won. Women had to fight for their rights and many sacrifices were made with movements like the Suffragettes. Men did not consent, far from it, but rights were won as they should be and progress was made.

Your analogy with the suffragettes isn’t a logical one.

By campaigning for the female franchise, women were taking NOTHING from men.

Men did not LOSE the right to vote when women gained it.

I could say more about the way that socialisation into the male sex class endows people, however they present to the world, with a frankly outrageous sense of entitlement.

Once again, our space -celebratory this time - has been invaded with an entitled “What about meeeeeee?”

Always has to be someone derail discussions with comments like that. Instead of getting involved in discussions you reinforce the problem. Nothing was hijacked - there was a natural evolution in the discussion but of course that has to be my fault. Most threads when they are hundreds of posts in have moved on and no-one is blamed for that. But then I clearly satisfy a confirmation bias.

If you want changes in law that discussion needs to take place. When the objection has been that women were not consulted where men took a lead do you consider the way forward is that transsexuals are not consulted and women should dictate the solution?

If you want changes in law that discussion needs to take place.

Just pointing out we don't need to change the law. We need to uphold it. And we need service providers, everywhere, do not be afraid to uphold it any longer.

@BlueLipstickRocks

You may well have experienced issues but it was not misogyny, as that only applies to biological women. Please do not culturally appropriate the issues of biological women.

Whether one is biologically female or perceived by society as female the attitudes are the same. By that argument when I had my genitals groped does that not count because it wasn't biologically female genitalia? Should the police have recorded it as a homosexual assault?

So I can't experience similar issues to women and state that fact or its cultural appropriation?

with respect, you have never had the risk of pregnancy that many women have. Statistically, you are likely to have physical strength and size on your side if attacked by a male, compared to most women (I am generalising, of course). For many women, this is another element of sexual assault that I would say informs our responses - even if subconsciously.

I'm not denying or diminishing your experiences or those of others, I'm sorry for them. But they are not precisely equivalent to those of women. Both motivations and consequences could be different to a large degree. Again, this might not be a quantative thing - but it will be materially different. It's not possible for either women to fully understand your experiences, or the converse.

So we know how Maya's tribunal will be rescheduled?

Are there other legal hoops to jump through before she gets it scheduled?

When the objection has been that women were not consulted where men took a lead do you consider the way forward is that transsexuals are not consulted and women should dictate the solution?

I believe women should dictate the solution, personally.
As I would expect if it was disabled people having to fight for something pertaining to disabilities, etc.

@Datun

If you want changes in law that discussion needs to take place.

Just pointing out we don't need to change the law. We need to uphold it. And we need service providers, everywhere, do not be afraid to uphold it any longer.

{Quote ends - let's see if I've managed not to screw it up this time}

...& this is exactly why I think Blue's contributions are an interesting insight into the future, as much as a derailment.

Now, if I go to, say, the gym, & say 'I don't mind at all if you have a unisex changing area, but to exercise here, I do need there to also be female only changing rooms. Female as in sex'. then I am expressing a view about the binary & immutable nature of biological sex that is now deemed worthy of respect.

So the gym owner, realising that actually that's exactly what lots of their female clientele want, can sort that out, with unisex private rooms for those who aren't eligible to use one type of single sex space, or comfortable in the other, as a 'reasonable adjustment'.

& if there are subsequent complaints of transphobia, the business owner can politely convey that they are making legal & reasonable provision for the legal & reasonable requirements of all their clients, in line with their right to run a safe, viable & profitable business.

I'm sure there'll be considerable further hoo-ha, including court cases, but the Overton window just shifted, quite a considerable distance.

I agree women should dictate the solution

Vast seem to agree a third unisex space is needed

We should dictate it because we have experienced life a a female it’s not a perceived life

I agree women should dictate the solution

There will never be a consensus of opinion. Even within a handful of people posting here there has been a variety of opinions.

Out of interest then where to transmen sit in the solution?

Transmen are female, so have every right to be in female single sex spaces.

If they don't want to use them, either because this would trigger their dysphoria, or because they're conscious of looking very masculine & worried about disconcerting other women, or for any other reason, they can also use those very handy unisex third spaces we all keep suggesting.

If they want to use male spaces, then it's for men to decide if they're OK with that, really.

It seems unlikely that a transman in a space which is designated male would present much threat to the safety of male people (although the transman might be at risk), but the dignity & privacy of male users of the space are still potential issues - just not feminists' issue to solve.

If they want to use male spaces, then it's for men to decide if they're OK with that, really.

If youre going to campaign for single sex spaces on the basis of an immutability of biological sex then transmen dont get to use male spaces.

It seems unlikely that a transman in a space which is designated male would present much threat to the safety of male people

Its also unlikely that a post op transsexual wth a GRC would present a threat to the safety of female people.

But @CorvusPurpureus I think what has happened in the past is no funding has been available to make said changes.
Money that could have been going towards making places truly inclusive (I'm not just talking about trans, some places for example have no lift for disability/pram Access)has been squandered on trying to bully women to accepting men in their spaces rather than providing adequate provision.
So the gym in question would have to weigh up if it was cost effective to do so. As female socialisation teaches us to suck it up, the majority did and those fringe women that couldn't do that quietly dropped off the radar.

If youre going to campaign for single sex spaces on the basis of an immutability of biological sex then transmen dont get to use male spaces.

Transmen don't pose a risk to men though. They are much more likely in general to be at risk from men. So whilst I think it is for men to decide, your response seems a little bit tit for tat and petty. My concerns are for the safeguards of women and children. We don't know which born males are safe and who are not. Which is why women need separate space.

To deny transmen entry as some kind of spite retaliation makes me think that you really haven't understood the concerns of women at all. In a bit disappointed in you Blue really. I thought that you were better than that.

Blue - I would be arguing for single sex spaces for women to be available. As a feminist who wants to protect women's rights.

I'm inclined to agree that transmen shouldn't be in male spaces, but I don't have skin in the game, & I'd rather men worried about their own single sex spaces.

I've heard it suggested that we should go for 'women' & 'open' spaces. That would not be my favoured solution, but it would solve the issue of males in female spaces. I could live with it, tbh.

As for the notion that post op transsexuals represent no threat: sure, I bet most of them don't. But as has been explained upthread:

1. we can generally tell who is male at a glance. That doesn't mean we can tell if they still have male genitals or not. So letting post op male transsexuals in to female spaces, is still going to leave women being made uncomfortable by a male presence & this is unacceptable.
2. not all male people who have had GRS are benign - qv. quite a few dubious characters online & IRL threatening violence against 'terfs'. One of them was having a pop at me on Twitter last night for sharing a tweet by Maya. No thanks.

I couldn’t walk to school at 13 without getting leering looks and comments.

This.

I experienced my first assault at seven when I learned that being in an out of sight place is not safe for people with female biology, as male people exist who feel entitled to make use of it.

I'm not in any way saying I don't care about the experiences of others, every assault, every attack is a horrendous thing, but here we are again with the forced teaming that refuses to permit that people born female may have a different, unique experience of their own. It is not a nice feeling in any way to be silenced and squashed aside so that someone not of that group can claim that exact experience and identity.

And yes, I'm afraid I also believe that it is for women to dictate who and who does not get to use a single sex female only space; and as a popular article once said, the conversation on who is not over until consent has been gained from the very last woman involved.

This is a theoretical conversation, but yes, this is absolutely what I want for women: that there are single sex female toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, where this is specific to people born female. I have no problem whatsoever with how those female people physically present if they want to use that space, they're female. This needs to be along side mixed sex third spaces. Not all female people want or need single sex spaces but some do. And it should not be for them to hush up, budge up and in many cases just quietly go away because of forced teaming that serves others but not them.

If youre going to campaign for single sex spaces on the basis of an immutability of biological sex then transmen dont get to use male spaces.

Transmen don't pose a risk to men though. They are much more likely in general to be at risk from men. So whilst I think it is for men to decide, your response seems a little bit tit for tat and petty. My concerns are for the safeguards of women and children. We don't know which born males are safe and who are not. Which is why women need separate space.

To deny transmen entry as some kind of spite retaliation makes me think that you really haven't understood the concerns of women at all. In a bit disappointed in you Blue really. I thought that you were better than that.*

Nothing tit for tat about it. If the campaign is for single sex then that is universal. Its a confusing message otherwise.

All the claims of immutability about biological sex and single sex spaces are rendered meaningless when appended with "but of course we dont mean transmen".

In response to Corvus's post above: yes, really.

The thing is now that I know, full well, having seen the tweets, heard the interviews, seen the placards, been told by other posters, there are trans people who regardless of how a space is designated, will enter it anyway because they choose to.

This is what has come of allowing some via the GRC: it means now any. It has set the entitlement. We now have the pictures of people with swords in toilets, and the 'suck my lady dick' instructions.

The only way to ever retrieve this gatekeeping back from this state of absolute misogynistic disaster for women is to fix, without any doubt, the right of a single sex space to be sex only, with very clear definition of what that means and means by which women can have this enforced as needed. As we all know, it is not all spaces - currently any spaces at all that have successfully continued to serve female only people are keeping their heads down and trying very hard to fly under the radar or they get rats nailed to their door. But there need to be some spaces for the female people who need them.