AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

You seem unable to see past your own experience, Blue, to consider the views of women who want single sex spaces. Are you genuinely unable to consider the subject from the point of view of a woman who may well have suffered just as much or more trauma than yourself? How come your trauma matters and hers doesn't?

I could just as easily ask the same question. Are you genuinely unable to consider the subject from the point of view of a transsexual who may well have suffered just as much or more trauma?

Acknowledging trauma in someone else doesn't invalidate mine and vice versa.

Its not a competition.

I have autism. My statement was not intended as disrespectful.
I’m sorry that the truth upsets you, but lies distress me.

You are entitled to that opinion. Please do not compound things farther.

@BlueLipstickRocks

You seem unable to see past your own experience, Blue, to consider the views of women who want single sex spaces. Are you genuinely unable to consider the subject from the point of view of a woman who may well have suffered just as much or more trauma than yourself? How come your trauma matters and hers doesn't?

I could just as easily ask the same question. Are you genuinely unable to consider the subject from the point of view of a transsexual who may well have suffered just as much or more trauma?

Acknowledging trauma in someone else doesn't invalidate mine and vice versa.

Its not a competition.

This is the womens’ rights board. You are a male born person with a problem with men. This is not women’s problem to solve. We are not everybody’s support humans.

Should we support an anorexic to attend weight-watchers or similar and go along with their belief that they are overweight?

No, we shouldn't. But nor should we take them into a situation that causes more trauma.
Why is it OK to promote transsexuals with a sex dysmorohia from going into make spaces.

We make accommodation based on people's needs.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*I have autism. My statement was not intended as disrespectful. I’m sorry that the truth upsets you, but lies distress me.*

You are entitled to that opinion. Please do not compound things farther.

I know I am entitled to that opinion. And Maya’s ruling - the purpose of this thread - allows me to say it.

This is the womens’ rights board. You are a male born person with a problem with men. This is not women’s problem to solve. We are not everybody’s support humans.

This is the AIBU.

In the eyes of the law the problem has been solved. You don't agree. I don't particularly like it myself but we have laws.

You are asking for a different solution and for what is there to be replaced. That involves discussion.

Unnecessary and uncalled for. I am trying to be respectful and have discussion here.

You know most people on this board don't believe it's possible to change sex. Please respect that, if you claim you're being respectful and you support us.

This is not women’s problem to solve. We are not everybody’s support humans.

Absolutely this. How has all of this, none of which involves women, become the responsibility of women to resolve. Whilst being insulted, threatened and bullied.

None of it is our doing. They are big boys they can sort all of this out if they want to. They just don't want to because they like intimidating women. Gives them a sense of power and control. Makes them feel superior.

Give it a rest. Stop pretending you don't understand. Sort your shit out. Tired of this now.

I know I am entitled to that opinion. And Maya’s ruling - the purpose of this thread - allows me to say it

Actually it does not. It very specifically stated in the ruling that holding a belief is one thing but it does not mean that to voice that belief to someone who is trans could not be deemed to be harassment. The ruling was 62 pages long. It also did not validate whether or not such a belief was right or wrong.

I don't have an issue here but respectfully this ruling was not a free pass to make comments that could be seen as offensive.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Should we support an anorexic to attend weight-watchers or similar and go along with their belief that they are overweight?

No, we shouldn't. But nor should we take them into a situation that causes more trauma.
Why is it OK to promote transsexuals with a sex dysmorohia from going into make spaces.

We make accommodation based on people's needs.

But you are a male person, who suffers from sex dysmorphia, & you've talked about diagnosis, so presumably you regard it as a medical condition?

I'm just not able to accept that 'some males with medical conditions/in certain circumstances/because they really want to, should be allowed to access female spaces, thereby causing them to cease to be female spaces.

If, as you've said, you'd be happiest with self contained unisex spaces, I'd be happy to support that as additional provision. Lots of women would.

Give it a rest. Stop pretending you don't understand. Sort your shit out. Tired of this now.

My "shit" is sorted. I'm sorry you aren't happy but I can assure you I'm not "pretending" anything. I have a different position to you and that is all.

@BlueLipstickRocks

I know I am entitled to that opinion. And Maya’s ruling - the purpose of this thread - allows me to say it

Actually it does not. It very specifically stated in the ruling that holding a belief is one thing but it does not mean that to voice that belief to someone who is trans could not be deemed to be harassment. The ruling was 62 pages long. It also did not validate whether or not such a belief was right or wrong.

I don't have an issue here but respectfully this ruling was not a free pass to make comments that could be seen as offensive.

I am not harassing you. I find your claim of your class being 100% female - when you were in it - is actually dishonest and offensive. And disrespectful to those who are not neurotypical who have to make sense of it.

But you are a male person, who suffers from sex dysmorphia, & you've talked about diagnosis, so presumably you regard it as a medical condition?

Of course it's a medical condition. It always was. It's Stonewall and their nonsense that said otherwise.

Medical condition aside the fact remains that the process of addressing said issue made certain needs more in common with those who are natally female.

For example.... men don't get breast screening, women do. Should I be denied my mammograms because of my natal sex rather than addressing medical need?

If, as you've said, you'd be happiest with self contained unisex spaces, I'd be happy to support that as additional provision. Lots of women would.
I second this and would be prepared to support it publicly, financially etc.

I genuinely don't understand why this isn't being pursued. It would benefit a lot of people, not just the trans community.

And it's been done before with disability access and that was a far more complicated undertaking.

*I am not harassing you.
I find your claim of your class being 100% female - when you were in it - is actually dishonest and offensive. *

And as I said that is your position and I respect your right to hold it.

Not aimed at you Blue it's all men, even the good ones who aren't speaking out about this and campaigning for transwomen to be included in their spaces with whatever adaptions they need to make them safe and comfortable. It's not that hard, they just don't want to. Men as a class always think they have a right to have whatever they want over women and transwomen also reflect that unfortunately due to being socialised as men.

@BlueLipstickRocks

But you are a male person, who suffers from sex dysmorphia, & you've talked about diagnosis, so presumably you regard it as a medical condition?

Of course it's a medical condition. It always was. It's Stonewall and their nonsense that said otherwise.

Medical condition aside the fact remains that the process of addressing said issue made certain needs more in common with those who are natally female.

For example.... men don't get breast screening, women do. Should I be denied my mammograms because of my natal sex rather than addressing medical need?

Male breast cancer exists. So, some men do get mammograms. Their medical need is met, as should yours be.

Slight tangent but I am curious. Are you more at risk from breast cancer than men then? Because men do get it don't they?

*If, as you've said, you'd be happiest with self contained unisex spaces, I'd be happy to support that as additional provision. Lots of women would.
I second this and would be prepared to support it publicly, financially etc.

I genuinely don't understand why this isn't being pursued. It would benefit a lot of people, not just the trans community.*

The argument for third spaces is never going to win. There simply is too few people. There's an awful lot of people claiming transphobia on the issue. It escapes me why self contained unisex spaces aren't being pursued instead of third spaces.

Self contained unisex spaces isn't about trans specifically. It's about the queues outside female toilets but never inside make. It's about the mother that has to take her son into the toilet whilst the little tearaway peers under doors. It's about those who feel they would benefit from a truly private space.

No-one can argue its transphobic.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Slight tangent but I am curious. Are you more at risk from breast cancer than men then? Because men do get it don't they?

Yes - the risk to men is very small, but the risk to male born people who choose to take hormones is higher. Still much lower than the risk to biological women, though.

Apologies, this linked article contains the term “cis” news.cancerresearchuk.org/2019/05/16/transgender-women-have-increased-risk-of-breast-cancer-compared-to-cisgender-men/

Slight tangent but I am curious. Are you more at risk from breast cancer than men then? Because men do get it don't they?

Very much so. Breasts develop in response to Oestrogen and Progesterone at puberty. The transsexual hormone regimen causes breast growth and therefore a significantly increased amount of breast tissue.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*If, as you've said, you'd be happiest with self contained unisex spaces, I'd be happy to support that as additional provision. Lots of women would. I second this and would be prepared to support it publicly, financially etc.

I genuinely don't understand why this isn't being pursued. It would benefit a lot of people, not just the trans community.*

The argument for third spaces is never going to win. There simply is too few people. There's an awful lot of people claiming transphobia on the issue. It escapes me why self contained unisex spaces aren't being pursued instead of third spaces.

Self contained unisex spaces isn't about trans specifically. It's about the queues outside female toilets but never inside make. It's about the mother that has to take her son into the toilet whilst the little tearaway peers under doors. It's about those who feel they would benefit from a truly private space.

No-one can argue its transphobic.

Women are at greater risk in unisex spaces. Lots of evidence provided previously on this board.

I’m happy to support third spaces as they would be of use to adults and children with opposite sex carers, as well as to those not comfortable using the facilities intended for their biological sex.

But that's the same thing isn't it? I'm talking about a third space, however you think it works best, self contained, unisex etc. The key thing is it's alongside same sex spaces.

Because unisex, whilst very useful for the reasons described above are not suitable for all situations.
And I believe there's data that says floor to ceiling unisex has greater risk of being shoved in to be assaulted.
But the key here is it's an addition. And everyone, absolutely everyone would support it.

So why isn't it being pushed for?

Yes - the risk to men is very small, but the risk to male born people who choose to take hormones is higher. Still much lower than the risk to biological women, though.

It depends on the hormone regimen.

When it's Oestrogen only the risk is higher than natal men but lower than natal female.
When Progestone is added its about the same.

This is because under Oestrogen alone breasts to not fully develop. Generally no more than a large A or small B and a Tanner 3/4.

@BlueLipstickRocks

Slight tangent but I am curious. Are you more at risk from breast cancer than men then? Because men do get it don't they?

Very much so. Breasts develop in response to Oestrogen and Progesterone at puberty. The transsexual hormone regimen causes breast growth and therefore a significantly increased amount of breast tissue.

That's really something that needs to be public knowledge. Did you know that before you started transition? Were you warned?