AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

@Vargas

I'm thrilled about Maya's victory, but I still feel fairly enraged that stating the blindingly obvious is now allowed and we're celebrating it like we've won something that never should have been lost in the first place. But I guess that's how protests often work, like glaciers, 2 steps back and 3 steps forward....

Yes. As AllDoneIn said

Imagine that a woman needed the law to intervene to protect her for saying that A PERSON CANNOT CHANGE THEIR BIOLOGICAL SEX. Really think about that. A woman lost her job for stating BIOLOGICAL REALITY.

It really does do your head in. Women. We are so lacking in human rights we had to fight in court (twice!) for the right to say our biological sex is real. And pay for the privilege. Twice.

@Thelnebriati

This is curious, I'm seeing several posts today that stress how people are post operative. Surgery is not a requirement for a GRC. It never has been, its considered a human rights issue to demand people sterilize themselves to obtain one. Women using a service have no way of knowing if someone is pre or post operative.

Exactly, and no way of finding out, or requesting evidence.

I'm sorry you are currently feeling like this BlueLipstick, and you seem upset at what you feel are 'your rights' being stripped away but presumably you didn't really consider how women would feel about their rights being taken away and slowly eroded when you started using our spaces without our consent, when we were forced to turn a blind eye for fear of causing upset.
You don't actually need to be in a single sex space to pee, you need a place to sit - and that can be in a third space.

The solution requires a reasonable compromise position. It not to revoke the GRA and take back certain rights. That solution I feel says no to intact male bodied people, allows GRC status to be seen as needed, and introduces strict legal penalties for those attempting to access a space without a GRC

And who do you propose to police this? My teenage daughter or granddaughter when she is alone in the toilets? No, you must see that there is no compromise. You must see that? Our spaces were taken without our consent and I'm sorry, I really am, that you now feel like you do as you fear something being 'taken away' from you.
But our spaces were taken from us and we are now finally able to stand up collectively and demand them back.

It never seems to be considered that actually women often find what trans activists do and say very offensive/distressing. That we are hurt here. That actually trans rights activists have a great deal more power in many ways than women: look at the gains they made in astonishingly short time, how they comprehensively captured so much of the Establishment (including Judge Tayler!) - while women battle on for years to get crumbs.

It’s this continued positioning of us as the more powerful in the equation, and trans folk as the embattled minority.

So eloquently put and so true. I am often struck by how little regard there seems to be for the female experience. Life in the shadow of male violence. Existing in the knowledge that every time you leave your house (and in fact even if you don’t) there’s a small chance a man may decide to end your life for no other reason than the fact you are female. That even a seemingly trustworthy man may take advantage of his position - taxi driver, police officer, doctor, teacher - to abuse and/or kill you. Just this week, a serving Metropolitan police officer pleaded guilty to the kidnap and rape (and accepted responsibility for the death) of a woman who was doing nothing but walking home from a friend’s house. From early in life, we see grainy smiling pictures of these women and girls on the news and know it could have been any one of us.

Yet WE’RE the oppressors?

Beautifully put MissChanandler

But our spaces were taken from us and we are now finally able to stand up collectively and demand them back.

This ruling was about the right to hold a certain belief. Yes, it was ridiculous that it needed to be done like this. It was not about the validity or such beliefs nor did it change any of the legislation around the Gender Recognition Act.

As with anything in society there will never be an agreement by everyone. I fully accept there are those who profoundly disagree with the GRA. I also acknowledge many other positions in between. Some women support self ID, others support those who are diagnosed. For some it's those who are post op. Holding a different position to this doesn't make me a bad person. It doesn't justify the anger and hatred that I saw yesterday. Having a valid position doesn't invalidate mine. It doesn't make me wrong. We have a situation here where different positions are created based on life experiences. Yes, I do not see things the way some here do. Equally some here don't see the things I do. There are many women who disagree and are supportive if post op transsexuals and I find it profoundly unfair that my position is used to justify telling me that I'm just another stereotypical man.

Rights are not gained through consent. Were there consent then rights are probably not needed. Rights are won. Women had to fight for their rights and many sacrifices were made with movements like the Suffragettes. Men did not consent, far from it, but rights were won as they should be and progress was made. Similarly I can clearly think of situations where people of colour had to fight for rights against an oppressor class of white who didn't consent.

I was asked yesterday to voluntary give up rights to prove I was a decent human being on the basis that women didn't agree. Are women giving back rights because men didn't agree? Of course not nor should they.

I do not for one minute support Stonewall and trans ideology. I do feel quite strongly opposed to the vast majority of what we have seen. Yes, you didn't consent. Neither did I. Transsexualism is not an identity ... its a diagnosis. Its been turned into a lifestyle choice. Those suicide figures for transgender of 42% attempting suicide? They are a manipulation of the figures for transsexuals. Of course transsexuals are less than 2% of the transgender umbrella. I and others like me have become a trojan horse for fetishism and misogyny and I don't for one minute deny that.

Will I use male spaces? No I won't. That doesn't mean I'm insensitive to the issues. It doesn't mean I won't respect the legal exemptions. It doesn't make me a self entitled narcisstic man. It doesn't mean I endorse self ID and opening of women's spaces to everyone who demands it. It means after many years of working and living in a female gender role, dealing with a disorder of transsexualism, having an appearance that society would say was female based on many years of hormonal and medical interventions that I am not able to put myself in a position where I open myself up to abuse in facilities thar would not satisfy my needs. Its not selfish its self preservation. By definition I have dysphoria and dysmorphia; you are asking that I ignore these things. I can't. You ask that I put myself in a position that is profoundly damaging. Transgender is not my identity, Transsexualism is my diagnosis.

Some here are clearly absolute in their thinking and see a dividing line fixed on biological sex. In that position there is no opportunity for discussion and of course you are free to look to change the law.
For others many look to support post op transsexuals and those with dysphoria and dysmorphia. Here we have opportunity for discussion. We do need to address the problem of those who pretend to be trans. We do need to address the safety concerns. Right now we have an imperfect law that does need addressing. The solution is not as some stated yesterday that transsexuals must immediately have their rights taken away and we keep looking for different solutions that satisfy the needs of a specific subset of women.

We have come from a place where men's rights were trampling womens rights. Disgraceful. Where TRA rights steamrollered women's rights. Some would have us move to a place where women's rights trample transsexual rights. I've seen enough of the attitude from man that says "why should men care, we have things the way we want them and if women don't like it that's there probiem". I fear a move where for some it's "why should women care about transsexuals. We have things the way we want and if transsexuals don't like it that's their problem. Let men fix it". An issue isn't resolved by pushing it onto someone else. You don't win by making it someone else's problem. Nobodies rights should trample another's,

I have no doubt I will be accused of all sorts by this post. This is not about sympathy but truth is there's a story behind every transsexual. We aren't all "men in dresses". Are some afraid of talking to TS people? Is it easier just to decide its all just entitled oppressors and turn a blind eye to the human element?

Agree or not but I am not the enemy. Some have different positions to me but even then there are many things we can agree on. I'm here to offer an opportunity for discussion. When a criticism is that women weren't consulted about changes that effect them are transsexuals not going to be consulted about changes that effect them?

My private messages are always open fir anyone who wants to talk and share with me.

*So eloquently put and so true. I am often struck by how little regard there seems to be for the female experience. Life in the shadow of male violence. Existing in the knowledge that every time you leave your house (and in fact even if you don’t) there’s a small chance a man may decide to end your life for no other reason than the fact you are female. That even a seemingly trustworthy man may take advantage of his position - taxi driver, police officer, doctor, teacher - to abuse and/or kill you. Just this week, a serving Metropolitan police officer pleaded guilty to the kidnap and rape (and accepted responsibility for the death) of a woman who was doing nothing but walking home from a friend’s house. From early in life, we see grainy smiling pictures of these women and girls on the news and know it could have been any one of us.

Yet WE’RE the oppressors?*

This so bears repeating.

Blue, whilst I'm sure many people sympathise with your situation, we cannot reserve empathy just for you, there are people who will be hurt by having a post operative transexual in their spaces. Namely, women with religious demands and trauma. These are the people I am thinking of when I am saying the current situation needs to change. Myself, I can of course, 'suck it up', but I need to address the needs of all women.
That's why I think things need to change, it's because the current situation disadvantages the vulnerable. It's nothing personal.

BlueLipstickRocks, let's say that hypothetically, in a couple of years time, all public places provide a third, open to anyone, space wherever facilities are segregated by sex.

It's seen as totally unremarkable for anyone to use it - whether because they're with an opposite sex person who needs help, or they are uncomfortable with the facilities for their own sex, or the queue is shorter, or ...whatever. No one bats an eye, everyone minds their own business.

Would you be OK with that as a solution, or would you still feel that you should use spaces reserved for women only?

working and living in a female gender role

Blue could you explain what that means? Genuine question. As, to me, it sounds like you have adopted a bunch of stereotypes about what you think a woman is. Stereotypes many of us have been fighting against for years.

*BlueLipstickRocks, let's say that hypothetically, in a couple of years time, all public places provide a third, open to anyone, space wherever facilities are segregated by sex.

It's seen as totally unremarkable for anyone to use it - whether because they're with an opposite sex person who needs help, or they are uncomfortable with the facilities for their own sex, or the queue is shorter, or ...whatever. No one bats an eye, everyone minds their own business.

Would you be OK with that as a solution, or would you still feel that you should use spaces reserved for women only?*

I feel this is a somewhat loaded question given the last line but I will answer nonetheless.

It would depend on what such a space looked like and who it was for. I see a trans only space for example as dangerous and likely to attract the not insignificant number of men who fantasise about trans persons. In a patriarchical society that still sees homosexuality as abhorrent and lesbianism as arousing I've seen too many men seek the counsel if pre op trans to satisfy a need yet supposedly maintaining their heterosexuality.

My preference has always been for individual self contained unisex facilities. A facility that isn't shared isn't a risk. In fact in solves other issues too... how often have you seen men walk into a male toilet whilst a growing queue develops outside the ladies?

Blue, whilst I'm sure many people sympathise with your situation, we cannot reserve empathy just for you, there are people who will be hurt by having a post operative transexual in their spaces. Namely, women with religious demands and trauma. These are the people I am thinking of when I am saying the current situation needs to change. Myself, I can of course, 'suck it up', but I need to address the needs of all women.
That's why I think things need to change, it's because the current situation disadvantages the vulnerable. It's nothing personal.

Indeed.

It would depend on what such a space looked like and who it was for. I see a trans only space for example as dangerous and likely to attract the not insignificant number of men who fantasise about trans persons. In a patriarchical society that still sees homosexuality as abhorrent and lesbianism as arousing I've seen too many men seek the counsel if pre op trans to satisfy a need yet supposedly maintaining their heterosexuality

So why is it we are able to share this fear of men and males in relation to issues faced by trans people but this same worry in relation to the same issues feared by women has us labeled as bigots.

This sounds like an.awfully round abkut way if saying that women should remain human.shields fir men and males and risk from other men and males.

I see a trans only space for example as dangerous and likely to attract the not insignificant number of men who fantasise about trans persons.

But - this is exactly how (some) women see a mixed-sex space.

*working and living in a female gender role

Blue could you explain what that means? Genuine question. As, to me, it sounds like you have adopted a bunch of stereotypes about what you think a woman is. Stereotypes many of us have been fighting against for years.*

In hindsight I worded this quite badly.

Gender roles and stereotypes are of course determined by society. They are extremely damaging and cause untold harm to people. I fully support the importance of breaking down such stereotypes and breaking the link between what you are and what you can be.

Unfortunately society isn't there yet and every day people are sexed based on their choices. Non conformity on the whole is still very much an issue when you cross a certain line.

Years and years ago my choices led to bullying. Following transition that stopped immediately. It was suddenly acceptable that a biological male could choose things that a society deemed as "female".

I work in a field that is over 99% female. When I trained my class was 100% female.

I would never say "I feel like a woman" - what I mean is that to a society that looks at who I am when I make choices based on simply who I am and what I enjoy, it would see that it aligns with an expectation associated with female. I don't chose female stereotypes but nonetheless I am tagged with them.

So why is it we are able to share this fear of men and males in relation to issues faced by trans people but this same worry in relation to the same issues feared by women has us labeled as bigots.

Because we live in a world fuelled by misogyny. Of course it isn't bigotry. It's once again an accusation used to stop legitimate questions being asked in situations where the indefensible cannot be defended.

@BlueLipstickRocks

*working and living in a female gender role

Blue could you explain what that means? Genuine question. As, to me, it sounds like you have adopted a bunch of stereotypes about what you think a woman is. Stereotypes many of us have been fighting against for years.*

In hindsight I worded this quite badly.

Gender roles and stereotypes are of course determined by society. They are extremely damaging and cause untold harm to people. I fully support the importance of breaking down such stereotypes and breaking the link between what you are and what you can be.

Unfortunately society isn't there yet and every day people are sexed based on their choices. Non conformity on the whole is still very much an issue when you cross a certain line.

Years and years ago my choices led to bullying. Following transition that stopped immediately. It was suddenly acceptable that a biological male could choose things that a society deemed as "female".

I work in a field that is over 99% female. When I trained my class was 100% female.

I would never say "I feel like a woman" - what I mean is that to a society that looks at who I am when I make choices based on simply who I am and what I enjoy, it would see that it aligns with an expectation associated with female. I don't chose female stereotypes but nonetheless I am tagged with them.

I did the opposite to you. I was bullied for not liking “feminine” things - dolls, dresses, make-up etc. And I work in an extremely male-dominated industry. It has not been easy, but other women have followed in my footsteps.

I, and other women, have broken down these barriers which limit women - at considerable personal cost. It seems that your actions are only helping yourself and are helping to reinforce those barriers.

I support any person who wishes to break away from stereotypes. But not by having men claim that other stereotypes make them into a woman. As that belittles mine and others’ efforts and restricts women.

When I trained my class was 100% female.

No, it wasn’t. It had at least one male in it.

Blue - ok, you prefer self contained unisex facilities. Fair enough.

So if they existed, in addition to the single sex female only facility for women, who for various reasons, don't want to use the unisex ones, would you be happy?

Or can't we have single sex facilities at all?

(Not just talking about bogs BTW - changing rooms, hospital/prison estate accommodation, homeless shelters & anything else where women are saying they need single sex provision, would also be affected).

Because ultimately, I can support you saying 'I need stuff that is like ', but if it comes with the caveat of '...& it has to be instead of, not as well as, the stuff like that women are saying they need' - then you're forcing me to pick a side.

& it's always going to be Team Women, then.

I support any person who wishes to break away from stereotypes. But not by having men claim that other stereotypes make them into a woman. As that belittles mine and others’ efforts and restricts women.

Gender non conformity is not the same as Gender Dysphoria. And Gender Dysphoria is a very different thing to Sex Dysmorphia.

I entirely agree with your argument when we are talking about the modern phenomenon we see that all too often equates a rejection of a stereotypes with a claim of transition. This us something that very much needs fought especially in our schools and the toxic Mermaids agenda.

It is hard to explain what transsexualism means unless you have experienced it. You don't get health body parts amputated because you don't like Gender stereotypes. It goes far deeper.

New phone is absolutely fucking with my paragraphing. Sorry.

Also, 'stuff like ___' not just 'stuff like'. Ffs. That made no sense 😕.

*When I trained my class was 100% female.

No, it wasn’t. It had at least one male in it.*

Unnecessary and uncalled for. I am trying to be respectful and have discussion here.

@BlueLipstickRocks

I support any person who wishes to break away from stereotypes. But not by having men claim that other stereotypes make them into a woman. As that belittles mine and others’ efforts and restricts women.

Gender non conformity is not the same as Gender Dysphoria. And Gender Dysphoria is a very different thing to Sex Dysmorphia.

I entirely agree with your argument when we are talking about the modern phenomenon we see that all too often equates a rejection of a stereotypes with a claim of transition. This us something that very much needs fought especially in our schools and the toxic Mermaids agenda.

It is hard to explain what transsexualism means unless you have experienced it. You don't get health body parts amputated because you don't like Gender stereotypes. It goes far deeper.

Men with AGP also have parts amputated for fetishistic reasons. How do we tell the difference?

Should we support an anorexic to attend weight-watchers or similar and go along with their belief that they are overweight? Is that healthy for them? Is it fair on those needing to lose weight for health reasons to make space for that person?

You seem unable to see past your own experience, Blue, to consider the views of women who want single sex spaces. Are you genuinely unable to consider the subject from the point of view of a woman who may well have suffered just as much or more trauma than yourself? How come your trauma matters and hers doesn't?

@BlueLipstickRocks

*When I trained my class was 100% female.

No, it wasn’t. It had at least one male in it.*

Unnecessary and uncalled for. I am trying to be respectful and have discussion here.

I have autism. My statement was not intended as disrespectful. I’m sorry that the truth upsets you, but lies distress me.