AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

We gotta fight for our right to party?

I can't: Make you love me.

I can: Oooohhh! Yes, Sir, I can boogie.

toconclude But trans people can just shut up because it's one rule for us, another for them? She may have her job back but she still has no right to misgender people (if you read the full text). Good

Where and when did Maya state she wanted the right to misgender people?

Trans people have been doing all the talking and no listening, they were the ones who demanded 'no debate' and told women to shut up and suck it up, they were the ones who resorted to abuse, death threats, rape threats, and doxxing aimed at any woman who tried to speak out to now claim they are being told they can just shut up and it's one rule for us and another for them is so pathetic it's almost funny.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer ah sorry, you think anything on the back of ‘women and...’ will confuse people who struggle with literacy and other issues?

Fantastic news - scary you can be fired simply for stating a fact

Gender is not a thing - it's a social construct based on some pretty toxic stereotypes - it's not a helpful thing to cling to - I am amazed people are so fond of the whole concept.

My daughter as a young 11-13 year old played footy and only shopped in the boys dept of stores - because she was a female who liked footy and polo shirts - she is now an adult who still loves these things and is gay

she wasn't a bot simply because she did things stereotypically male

I long for the days Eddie Izzard was a 'bloke in a dress' - rather than all this 'lady brain' bollox

BOY

But neither of these are good enough solutions because they complicate and muddy the language for the truly vulnerable.
Low literacy
Non native speakers
Learning disabilities.

I say this a lot.

Being inclusive often excludes others, particularly in this case people with learning disabilities and women from minority backgrounds with English as a second language.

But those women aren't 'exciting' enough for the inclusivists.

Regardless of what words you or I feel are acceptable, adding words in disadvantages the truly vulnerable.
And for that reason important things like medical literature should reference only men and women.
Universally understood words to reach the target audience.
Gender identity does not trump the need for clear, concise language.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Regardless of what words you or I feel are acceptable, adding words in disadvantages the truly vulnerable. And for that reason important things like medical literature should reference only men and women. Universally understood words to reach the target audience. Gender identity does not trump the need for clear, concise language.

Halelujah!

[quote WarriorN]Has this been posted?

If so, worth another!

Excellent interview with Maya who really explains the background and today's ruling

unherd.com/thepost/maya-forstater-todays-judgment-on-trans-is-a-landmark/[/quote]

Also explores stonewall

What I find is interesting is that this judgement really is another nail in the coffin for the Stonewall Diversity Champion Scheme which has no place, obviously, for Gender Critical views.

Organisations will probably have to rethink compelled pronouns and use of the term cis.

It is also going to be very difficult in practice for employers to manage conflicts between GC employees and trans employees if the employer is a member of the scheme particularly if they have enshrined Stonewall law in the contracts.

I think this will have quite wide reaching ramifications for employers and employment lawyers.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Regardless of what words you or I feel are acceptable, adding words in disadvantages the truly vulnerable. And for that reason important things like medical literature should reference only men and women. Universally understood words to reach the target audience. Gender identity does not trump the need for clear, concise language.

Absolutely fair enough. But again, I’m not sure that’s how it’s going to go. Language evolves all the time and I completely understand why it’s important that medical information is clear and easily accessible. But I don’t think that’s particularly an issue in throwing out an odd tweet here and there saying ‘women and...’.

Private tweets- you do you.
Public tweets need to reach and be understood.
Language does change. Yet medical literature has remained the same for a long time because it's recognised that simple language is needed.
In the 70+ years my grandad's been alive men have been invited to get their prostate checked.
Not teddy boys.
Not punks.
Not non binary.
There's a reason for that.
And we should not be sacrificing the actually vulnerable to be inclusive to people that likely have the advantages others don't.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Regardless of what words you or I feel are acceptable, adding words in disadvantages the truly vulnerable. And for that reason important things like medical literature should reference only men and women. Universally understood words to reach the target audience. Gender identity does not trump the need for clear, concise language.

You’re right. Plain English campaign is good for this. If you’ve worked for a company that uses it you can see pretty quickly that accessible language is important.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

Private tweets- you do you. Public tweets need to reach and be understood. Language does change. Yet medical literature has remained the same for a long time because it's recognised that simple language is needed. In the 70+ years my grandad's been alive men have been invited to get their prostate checked. Not teddy boys. Not punks. Not non binary. There's a reason for that. And we should not be sacrificing the actually vulnerable to be inclusive to people that likely have the advantages others don't.

Absolutely, I agree with you. Medical tweets, clear and easily understood language, I agree.

Being inclusive often excludes others, particularly in this case people with learning disabilities and women from minority backgrounds with English as a second language.

But those women aren't 'exciting' enough for the inclusivists.

Never a truer word spoken WarriorN, it's the same when the inevitable arguments come up about single sex spaces not a toss is given for the women who will be excluded when the space is made mixed sex by people entering on the basis of gender identity.

All this bother about inclusive language, I'd rather an inclusive society
One where women were treated as full humans , paid properly, not subject to sexual harressment, not at risk of injury from default male safety gear

Language is an easy way to say we are inclusive without actually doing it

I hope Maya is ok, she is very, very brave (well done her). I do worry about her safety though.

Medical ones are the obvious ones. But language still needs to be simple so not to be exclusive.
Tweets encouraging girls.to join rainbows.
Tweet about local libraries.
Tweets about book clubs.
Tweets about mother and baby groups.
Breast feeding circles.
All require simple language. There are far more examples of where simple language is required than not.
Where trans and non binary is required are in groups specifically tailored to them.

How has what started as an interesting thread descended into about 7 pages of tedious demands to state what language is 'acceptable' on a tampax box or in the 'odd tweet'. There was a whole other thread to discuss that!

Today's result is fantastic - it really feels like the tide is starting to turn though as a pp mentioned, it has been truly depressing to see the underlying misogyny and hatred of women underneath a thin layer of civility.

@Pumperthepumper

This is great then! This is our middle ground!

As said before. This is not my middle ground. Women is my ground. Only women bleed Not our issue

I know, you said.

You are derailing the thread Pumper

Is it intentional?

@BoreOfWhabylon

You are derailing the thread Pumper

Is it intentional?

Am I? I said several times the ruling is great news. Do you want me to leave the thread?

I think you should stop going on and on and on about language.