AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

It is a hypothetical question - not even one tweet?

If it was genuinely just one tweet I’d probably roll my eyes and think it was all a bit pathetic. But it’s not, so I don’t.

But if we could get to the stage that is was, would you consider that fair?

people are being taken to court. People are sending death threats

Nice equivalence there.

Do you understand what today's judgment was about?

Well if one party wants to stamp the other out of existsnce. Akin to bulldozing the churches then yes it is hard to find middle ground

Many on the feminist board would be happy for sex and gender to be recognised snd catered for

But that's not good enough , it must be gender only in some eyes

@LangClegsInSpace

people are being taken to court. People are sending death threats

Nice equivalence there.

Do you understand what today's judgment was about?

Yes, I understand. And I’m glad of the result. But I still think it’s fair to point out: this doesn’t seem like a happy middle ground.

@midgedude

Well if one party wants to stamp the other out of existsnce. Akin to bulldozing the churches then yes it is hard to find middle ground

Many on the feminist board would be happy for sex and gender to be recognised snd catered for

But that's not good enough , it must be gender only in some eyes

But at the same time, it must be sex only for other eyes.

How do you mean?

@midgedude

How do you mean?

People don’t want any inclusion of anything other than biological sex.

Not on the feminist board
Not generally

Although some people are getting more entrenched the more they are abused

To refer to a long running debate on mumsnet.

Some people do not want to get changed in the company of opposite sex 'tweens'. Many parents don't want their over 8 children to get changed without adult supervision. The compromise is mixed changing and single sex changing areas.

This isn't always possible, so the debate runs on. However, that doesn't mean that the different groups deny each others' existence or don't understand the other point of view.

Take out the ideology and the need for affirmation, and it isn't difficult to find common ground.

But at the same time, it must be sex only for other eyes.

Can you explain your understanding of today's judgment? It seems like there are some crossed wires ...

YANBU.

Quite right, OP. Well done, Maya, must be such a relief. Beggars belief that common sense and basic reality needs to be protected in law, but here we are.

I think sometimes ( often) the gender critical position is wilfully misrepresented

[quote Pumperthepumper]@TheWordWomanIsTaken no? All out war?[/quote]
I don't think all out war - what a strange thing to say.
I just don't believe that men or transwomen should have access to female spaces, awards, sports, etc in any circumstance.
I don't subscribe to 'be kind, they just want to wee'.
This is a male problem to sort out.
So no, there is no middle ground.
Any move to a middle ground requires women to cede their rights and spaces.

@LangClegsInSpace

But at the same time, it must be sex only for other eyes.

Can you explain your understanding of today's judgment? It seems like there are some crossed wires ...

My understanding is Maya tweeted about biological sex under ‘transwomen are not women’ or similar and was sacked for it. She sued her employer, and won, because (aside from biological fact) that’s her belief and it couldn’t be shown to harm others. Which is absolutely as it should be.

But trans people exist. So where is this middle ground where we can’t even lob them one tweet every so often saying ‘people who menstruate’ or similar?

You lost me there ?

You can tweet what you like

You would be stupid to tweet something dehumanising like that if you were marketing to women but you can tweet away

So where is this middle ground where we can’t even lob them one tweet every so often saying ‘people who menstruate’ or similar?

Because only females menstruate maybe?
Why bother saying “people”?

@TheWordWomanIsTaken I understand what you’re saying, and I do agree that sex segregation is important and necessary. But I do think this is an unwinable fight if we can’t find an overlap.

But trans people exist. So where is this middle ground where we can’t even lob them one tweet every so often saying ‘people who menstruate’ or similar?

Why does there need to be middle ground? People are free to hold different beliefs. That is the point,

This is a good result.

@LadyFidgetAndHerHandbag

From what I have seen Maya was concerned about potential changes in law, and she also expressed her belief that transwomen are different to cis gender women.

Whether I share her views or not is irrelevant, she had a right to express herself. Freedom of speech is incredibly important and we are fast moving into 'thought crime' and 'doublethink' territory.

@midgedude

You lost me there ?

You can tweet what you like

You would be stupid to tweet something dehumanising like that if you were marketing to women but you can tweet away

I don’t see how you could be lost, it’s fairly clear. Do we pretend trans people don’t exist, to the extent they get absolutely no mention in anything directed at women?

Overlap?

Where do you think overlap is needed?

I guess that's saying what things that are currently separated by sex or not separated at all should be separated on gender ?

@WalkersAreNotTheOnlyCrisps

So where is this middle ground where we can’t even lob them one tweet every so often saying ‘people who menstruate’ or similar?

Because only females menstruate maybe?
Why bother saying “people”?

Because some people ‘pretend’ (if you like) to be male. And increasingly so. So why not include them in marketing a product for their biology?

@midgedude

Overlap?

Where do you think overlap is needed?

I guess that's saying what things that are currently separated by sex or not separated at all should be separated on gender ?

Because, as I said above, at the moment we’ve got death threats and lawsuits.

And no, again, not things separated by sex, such as toilets or prisons. But fairly easy non-issues like marketing period products or viagra.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@TheWordWomanIsTaken I understand what you’re saying, and I do agree that sex segregation is important and necessary. But I do think this is an unwinable fight if we can’t find an overlap.[/quote]
Women don't need to find an overlap.
Men do.

Erm

Clearly trans people exist .. no one Denys that do they ?

Woman or woman and transmen I think covers most cases politely and respectfully