AIBU to think Maya scored a victory for common sense today?

[DancesWithTortoises]

twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402922169559044096?s=20

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

The law just cannot be allowed to tell people what to think.

Hurrah for Maya!

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Good news for all of us, and it must be a huge relief to Maya and her team after years of having to fight for her right to speak.

Meanwhile Marion Millar awaits trial in Scotland for tweeting her standard feminist views. She also posted a picture of ribbons in the suffragette colours, fluttering gaily in the breeze, which someone complained was threatening because they could be taken as looking like a noose. Shocking stuff, I know.

While Marion awaits trial she's received the usual tonnage of genuine threats, but I don't expect anyone will be charged for just, you know, threatening violence against a woman.
lilymaynard.com/the-curious-case-of-marion-millar/

Let's hope that recent victories are a sign that sanity is being reasserted, and that Marion walks free -- preferably with hefty compensation.

Do we know what Marion Miller has been charged with yet?

Wheres the common ground though? I asked upthread and I don’t think anyone answered yet, what overlap would you be happy with?

Everyone should be free to present how they want, change their name if they wish, be trans/gay/NB etc.

Feminists are concerned with women's rights.

The bottom line in preserving women's rights from a GC perspective is preserving the definition of the word "woman".

If you believe penis havers can be women then "women only" anything, all women's rights, become mixed sex and basically meaningless. Tra "the other side" disagree on that point, thinking being a woman is not related to having or not having a penis, and think it's all a matter for any individual to decide personally if they're a woman or not.

The middle ground is for everyone to recognise the need for single sex spaces, eg in sport, prisons refuges and public loos etc, that single sex spaces are important in order for women to participate in public life safely and fairly.

Trans people also need to participate in public life safely and fairly. We can all agree on that.

The solution is not to make life more unfair and unsafe for women. It's to come up with an alternative.

Many alternatives have been put forth by feminists only for the suggestions to be met with vile misogynistic abuse from TRA.

Any normal person would be onside with mixed sex spaces for trans people and all others who are happy with mixed sex spaces, whilst preserving same sex spaces for those who need them.

Sorry for the length. Someone else could probably explain it in one line...

Congratulations and bloody well done to Maya - “Be braver today than you were yesterday.”

I also donated to her (and various other) similar crowd funders fighting for the sex based rights of women and girls, and it's never felt like enough. I've written to my MP so often she must be sick of seeing my name and it's never felt like enough. I've signed petitions to support the sex based rights of women and girls. I've supported every person I can find who has faced discrimination and abuse for believing that biological sex is real, I've bought their books, their artwork, their merchandise, and always thanked them for making their stand. It's never felt like enough. I've followed their social media. I've spoken to friends and family about the issue and why it's important. I've objected to TERF being used as a slur to silence women and been told I shouldn't have a job because of it. None of it has felt like enough.

But this ruling today makes me feel like perhaps it's helped after all. Maya doesn't stand alone but she and a handful of others are standing at the front, and I hope they know that there are so many others standing behind them, standing with them,, doing what they can to support them all the same and fight for the sex based rights of women and girls. Thanks to her, and others like her, maybe we can all be a little braver tomorrow.

Brilliant news, well done Maya!

I feel as though one day, we'll have to go to court for the right to believe that the Earth isn't flat and that it goes round the sun.

That could theoretically happen. If you applied for a back-office job at the Flat Earth Society and they rejected your application because you didn't believe the earth was flat you would have a case for discrimination.

They could use the occupational requirement exception if they were hiring e.g. a speaker - i.e. legitimately say the job required the belief in a flat earth - but not if it was just an admin role or something.

As for Keir Starmer, the campaign by women in Scotland has said it perfectly - Don't expect my X if you don't respect my sex.

Excellent news 🥳

Also I particularly like this bit where her views are compared to Christian homophobes 'Just as the legal recognition of Civil Partnerships does not negate the right of a person to believe that marriage should only apply to heterosexual couples, becoming the acquired gender “for all purposes” within the meaning of GRA does not negate a person’s right to believe, like the Claimant, that as a matter of biology a trans person is still their natal sex. Both beliefs may well be profoundly offensive and even distressing to many others, but they are beliefs that are and must be tolerated in a pluralist society.'

Yes, and a belief in gender identity is protected in just the same way. Wonderful, isn't it katrina?

Pumper, I'm not certain what tweets were involved. NB to save a bit of time searching for the wrong person, her surname is spelt Millar, not Miller.

Lily Maynard's blog says we now know that Marion has been charged on two counts of malicious communications under the MCA. The tweets could be seen as ‘aggravated hate crime’ and, under the MCA, theoretically she could face up to 2 years in prison.

I haven't had time to track down an official statement. The police may not yet have decided which heinous bit of truth-telling was the most evil.

Great! And where’s the overlap into trans rights that you’d be happy with?

This is an odd way of going about things.

Now that #NoDebate is finally dead, each party can respectfully state their needs. Then we can see where there are conflicting rights and negotiate those conflicts like reasonable adults.

I agree with BarbarianMum:

As a woman I am looking for safety, respect, tolerance and equality. That would include the provision of single sex spaces and exemptions where necessary to achieve this.

It's up to trans people to respectfully state their needs now. It's not up to women to pre-emptively give up our own rights before reasonable negotiations have even begun.

Wheres the common ground though? I asked upthread and I don’t think anyone answered yet, what overlap would you be happy with?

For me there is absolutely no problem with anyone wanting to dress a certain way, to feel a certain without being targeted and harassed. If a man wants to feel like a woman and express that then that is his right and he should expect not to be discriminated at work, out in public. I think people being bullied for wanting to put on lipstick or wear a skirt, or be called Mary - is despicable.

However I as a woman also deserve not to be discriminated against and to have a level playing field in life. I would like to be respected as a woman, where I am more likely to be abused sexually and within I home settings. I am physically weaker than most men. I take different risks such as childbirth. Unfortunately many groups do not have a level playing field, such as ethnic groups, the disabled and women. There are also public spaces which have issues around privacy and dignity, such as hospitals and public toilets. There are also groups such as children where safeguarding comes first, for their emotional, physical and sexual development.

A man who wants to feel like a woman absolutely deserves a level playing field also at work and not to be harassed in life. However if a man who feels like a woman wants to change, alter or eradicate hard won areas such as single sex spaces, children’s safeguarding, equalities monitoring of women, women’s safeguarding, human rights of women to privacy and dignity with their own sex such as in hospitals. If a man who feels like a woman wants to change that - then show me categorically that it will not do harm or suggest an alternative.

It is not up to me a woman to fix the issue of a man who feels like a woman and where they want to sleep in hospitals, go to the toilet, be recorded on an official form. It is the man who feels like a woman’s issue to do this without stamping on my or other’s. There are many solutions I am sure, with creativity and thought.

It’s just my job as a woman to respect everyone and not harass others. Not to do the work for other groups.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

Pumper, I'm not certain what tweets were involved. NB to save a bit of time searching for the wrong person, her surname is spelt Millar, not Miller.

Lily Maynard's blog says we now know that Marion has been charged on two counts of malicious communications under the MCA. The tweets could be seen as ‘aggravated hate crime’ and, under the MCA, theoretically she could face up to 2 years in prison.

I haven't had time to track down an official statement. The police may not yet have decided which heinous bit of truth-telling was the most evil.

Typo, I know how to spell her name. I’ve read loads about it and she’s never said, as far as I can see, what she’s actually been charged with.

And the language? People who menstruate and so on?

No, I’m not happy about that. It feels the opposite of inclusive and it’s dehumanising. If products are being aimed at transmen or people who identify as non binary then use transmen or people who identify as non binary, but it’s not necessary to erase the use of the word woman in the process.

Sorry, I read that wrong. So we do know what she’s been charged with at last.

I'm so sick of hearing about trans people complaining or cancelling or getting someone fired its every day. its exhausting poor Maya for going through all that

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

And the language? People who menstruate and so on?

No, I’m not happy about that. It feels the opposite of inclusive and it’s dehumanising. If products are being aimed at transmen or people who identify as non binary then use transmen or people who identify as non binary, but it’s not necessary to erase the use of the word woman in the process.

Not even on the odd tweet?

@Pumperthepumper

I just want to make it clear that I absolutely believe the ruling in Maya’s case was just and fair, and I believe it’s ridiculous that she was sacked in the first place. BUT where is the middle ground between women and transwomen? What will make this an easier ride for everyone?

There is no middle ground

Has anyone got that Venn diagramme?

@TheWordWomanIsTaken no? All out war?

Not even on the odd tweet?

It’s not just the odd tweet though.

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

Not even on the odd tweet?

It’s not just the odd tweet though.

But if it was, the odd tweet once in a while?

But if it was, the odd tweet once in a while?

But it’s not, so that’s a hypothetical question.

[quote Pumperthepumper]@TheWordWomanIsTaken no? All out war?[/quote]
Don't be silly.

Where is the middle ground between believing in god and being an atheist? We don't have to all agree to half-believe in god to avoid 'all out war' do we?

We can just coexist with different beliefs and navigate any conflicts as they come up.

@JeanClaudeVanDammit

But if it was, the odd tweet once in a while?

But it’s not, so that’s a hypothetical question.

It is a hypothetical question - not even one tweet?

It is a hypothetical question - not even one tweet?

If it was genuinely just one tweet I’d probably roll my eyes and think it was all a bit pathetic. But it’s not, so I don’t.

@LangClegsInSpace we’re not though - people are being taken to court. People are sending death threats. This doesn’t seem like a happy co-existence to me. The FWR board is absolutely dominated by trans issues. That’s not a middle ground.