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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

'Joke' or HR matter?

729 replies

MapleSyrupMoose · 09/06/2021 17:22

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

OP posts:
MissTrip82 · 10/06/2021 14:52

I’d ignore it but keep a screenshot in case it should come up in the future.

I’m astonished so many people have faith that HR can handle this sort of thing without fucking it up entirely.

LivingInThe80s · 10/06/2021 14:55

@LakieLady

I've been in workplaces where there were discussions about prostitution, strip clubs. Stuff like that. It's difficult. In a male dominated workplace the consequences of saying anything can be major.

I worked in a very male-dominated field, for an organisation that was positively backward in its attitudes. I was the first woman to be appointed in that role. A couple of days before I started, my colleagues were told that they needed to take down the page 3 calendar that was on the wall of the office. It was totally male dominated and, frankly, a bit backward.

Within my first week, I was challenging sexist (and racist, and homophobic) comments. It took about 6 months for (most of) them to learn that that sort of shite was unacceptable. They realised I was not to be messed with, and that I was excellent at my job.

One man was slow on the uptake and persisted. By calling him on it, every single time, these comments became less and less frequent. He got cunning about it, and started only to make them when there was no-one else around. I still called him on it. His peers started to tell him he was out of order.

After about 2 years, and after a lot of pressure from the union, they introduced a sexual harassment policy. Two days after it was approved, and following another puerile, smutty and misogynistic remark, I was finally able to say to him "There is now a policy in place about this sort of behaviour, and I will make full use of it if you ever say anything like that to me again".

He was stunned, and never made another inappropriate comment within my earshot from then until the day he retired.

Things can change, but it takes determination and effort. Fear of "consequences" is playing right into the hands of these idiots. Women have more protection in law than ever before and no employer wants to risk having to defend inaction against harassment in a tribunal.

Women have fought long and hard for these changes. And other women just accepting harassment because of "consequences" is undermining everything they achieved.

Women have fought long and hard for these changes. And other women just accepting harassment because of "consequences" is undermining everything they achieved.

Absolutely this. Our female forebears would be turning over in their graves. Even the feminists of the seventies. None of them would have run from a fight to protect their own rights at work or anywhere. They would all be wondering why they bothered, when they look at us women today.

Ninkanink · 10/06/2021 14:56

Feminism hasn’t failed. But ultimately it is up to men to change things. And it’s quite clear that they don’t want to. Not as a class, not at a societal level.

LivingInThe80s · 10/06/2021 15:13

@GuildfordGal

This is really fucking depressing

Isn't it. I went to bed feeling somewhat helpless and depressed about it all, especially next to the Guardian piece on the recently-mentioned Ofsted report that I linked a page or so back.

I'm choosing to think the 'HR people' on this thread who advise against doing anything are not HR people at all. Or if they are, then they need a new fucking job.

So did I. I'm not the sort to admit to being emotional, but I feel really depressed last night about this thread, and very teary. That the OP accepts that's her worth and doesn't have the self respect to stand up for herself because society has conditioned her to believe she is worth less and she should just put up with comments like that, as if he 'probably means it in a nice way' that the OP should leave the workforce to the men, and she should be satisfied selling her body. It's bad enough when women like the OP are socialised, conditioned and trained to believe that that is all her worth is, even worse when women come on here and suggest he should be given another chance, even though he doubled down that it was 'only a joke' (call a person of colour the N word then when they get upset say it's only a joke!!! and see how HR treats that!). Him doubling down would make me so angry it would be all I need to report it. That women just accept it is..... I'm speechless. This is what the suffragettes fought for?????
LivingInThe80s · 10/06/2021 15:15

@BIWI

So you're not going to do anything about this, are you *@MapleSyrupMoose*?

How very fucking depressing. You're letting him get away with this, which means he pretty much has a free pass to behave like this again/with other women in your company. You, then, are part of the problem.

FFS.

Exactly.
Thevoiceofreason2021 · 10/06/2021 15:15

Ask him to repeat himself I front the f the boss/ rest of the team, Don’t apologise.... stick to your guns and remain polite and professional. Harrasment is defined as unwanted behaviour which you find offensive or which makes you feel intimidated or humiliated. So it’s differ t for everyone. I’ve had to call people out on it....would you speak to tour boss like that? I find that people modify their behaviour to what they feel they can get away with. I’ve have sat in a boardroom with a dozen men and asked one to repeat what he just said and explain in greater detail the meaning. Very awkward for everyone but I couldn’t give a fig and it never happened again 🤣🤣

Wavypurple · 10/06/2021 15:18

Not a joke if no one’s laughing.

Disgusting. HR definitely.

LivingInThe80s · 10/06/2021 15:21

@MapleSyrupMoose

What do you reckon I do then? There's a good number of women, as you can see here, who are inclined to see it as just a joke/compliment, which means that there probably are many more men who think so too. Pushing back against the tide is nice and all but the risk seems to be bigger than I thought it'd be when I wrote my first post! What happens if word gets out? I may not be in the wrong but there's a fair chance others won't see it that way. What then? I worked so hard all through Uni to get the right internships and the right grades so I could get the career I wanted, and the thought that something like this could jeopardise even a bit of that is what makes me think I should forget about it and just move on.
but the risk seems to be bigger than I thought it'd be when I wrote my first post!

What risks? What risks are you talking about? You won't be sacked, there is no risk to you, the law protects you on that, especially as you have the text as actual proof.

SingingInTheShithouse · 10/06/2021 15:31

OP, I understand as intern that you are worried about rocking the boat. So this is what I suggest yiu do...

Ask HR if there is a system for having an informal chat, without making a formal complaint.

Explain that you are dealing with the issue yourself for now, but would like to sound it out with someone in their professional role, just incase there have been other similar complaints, in which case you'd be happy to support those complaints with your own experience.

If there have been no other complaints then you leave it at that & deal with sleaze bag directly yourself. If there are other complaints. Then of course add yours to the list as a formal complaint.

Screenshot the message & send it to via message/text in response to his message, with something this message ...

Hi Sleazebag

As a considered response to this message of yours, I do not accept this sort of misogynistic response to a work email or anything else. From now on keep your responses to me professional & through the correct channels. I am keeping this screenshot & will report it to the appropriate department if you ever try & pull any this sexist assed shit again. I will be watching you with other female colleagues too.

& please do not try & belittle my response to you as "over sensitive" or "no fun" "can't take a joke" etc. Until you can take full responsibility for your unacceptable & misogynist behaviour & wind it in. You & I are not going to be getting along.

Keep it professional & recognise that this is unacceptable & quite frankly behaviour that will get you into trouble

You have been warned

SingingInTheShithouse · 10/06/2021 15:36

Oh & send him an email too

" H "name"

Further to our conversation & in response to your """ message, please keep all future correspondence via this email & other professional channels only & in a professional manner.

Thank you

2bazookas · 10/06/2021 15:39

I wouldn't report it to HR.. this time.
But I would message him " That was a really sexually offensive and demeaning remark.. Don't ever make that mistake again. "

HarebrightCedarmoon · 10/06/2021 15:48

WILL PEOPLE STOP FUCKING VICTIM BLAMING. Maple doesn't have to do anything at all ifshe doesn't want to, she is entitled to ignore it and go about her day. It is not on women to constantly police men's behaviour, the sole responsibility is on men who say shit like this.

minou123 · 10/06/2021 15:51

I can understand where the OP is coming from.

When you're in your 20s, starting your career and wanting do the best you can, the last thing you want to do is rock the boat or be the centre of a everyone criticising you if you decide to report.

To be honest, this hasn't changed from 10, 20, 30 or even 50 years ago.
Unfortunately, women have always had to really consider the consequences of making a complaint.
This should have changed, but it hasn't.

The thing is, this won't be the last time you are sexually harassed.

It certainly hasn't been for me. And without sounding too patronising, you do learn not to care about the consequences or what other people's opinions are. I'm a lot older than you (40s) and quite frankly I don't care what the consequences are for the man and nor do I care if people think I'm "overreacting".

When I was deciding if to report to the police, the floor fitter who sexually harassed me, it did cross my mind that he might come round to my house and cause more problems.
But i thought "fuck it", if he does that, I have more evidence for the police.

GuildfordGal · 10/06/2021 15:56

WILL PEOPLE STOP FUCKING VICTIM BLAMING. Maple doesn't have to do anything at all ifshe doesn't want to, she is entitled to ignore it and go about her day. It is not on women to constantly police men's behaviour, the sole responsibility is on men who say shit like this

The OP specifically asked in her thread whether she should report. Posters are replying to her question and giving their reasons. It's the whole point of the thread.

IMO reporting the incident isn't policing - it's holding someone to account for their actions. HR can do the policing bit or not if it's one of the HR people on this thread

GuildfordGal · 10/06/2021 15:57

strikethroughfail

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 10/06/2021 15:58

@Viviennemary

Why are you sending out messages in the middle of the night. To work colleagues.
1) it wasn’t the middle of the night
  1. in many pressured industries and / or where you flex your hours, it’s unremarkable

  2. so fucking what!

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 10/06/2021 16:01

@NiceGerbil

Deal with it yourself Think of the consequences for a good man

Nothing changed really has it

Is this posted ironically?
MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 10/06/2021 16:10

@myfuckingfreezer

I don't get it?

Women like you - what does that mean? As in you exercise and therefore must be fit?

‘Women like you’

Young, hot & fuckable i guess is what he’s saying

MyrtlethePurpleTurtle · 10/06/2021 16:21

I don’t think your HR person has a right to formally reprimand him for outside of hours behaviour. They could perhaps counsel and guide on the inappropriateness of the response.

However HR would need to address the issue of you contacting him outside of work hours with a non urgent work related matter too.

..,

In future work stays within work hours for everyone.

I find this thread surreal with its victim blaming, apologists for the male creep and seemingly no unawareness of required standards in the work place and employment law

BIWI · 10/06/2021 16:27

@HarebrightCedarmoon

Victim blaming is not telling or advising @MapleSyrupMoose what to do.

Victim blaming would be posters telling her that she shouldn't have emailed him out of hours, or suggesting that she must be behaving in such a way to attract his (unwanted) attention.

AccidentallyOnPurpose · 10/06/2021 16:29

@GuildfordGal

WILL PEOPLE STOP FUCKING VICTIM BLAMING. Maple doesn't have to do anything at all ifshe doesn't want to, she is entitled to ignore it and go about her day. It is not on women to constantly police men's behaviour, the sole responsibility is on men who say shit like this

The OP specifically asked in her thread whether she should report. Posters are replying to her question and giving their reasons. It's the whole point of the thread.

IMO reporting the incident isn't policing - it's holding someone to account for their actions. HR can do the policing bit or not if it's one of the HR people on this thread

She also came back and stated she won't report and explained why. She's worried. About the fallout. About her career. About her reputation.That should be good enough.

Yes, in an ideal world she should report and feel supported and confident to do so. However, that is obviously not the case. Bullying and shaming OP and saying she's part of the problem won't make her report. Even worse, it's more likely that next time she has an issue she won't even dare to ask for advice or support.

TheOrigRights · 10/06/2021 16:45

@HarebrightCedarmoon

WILL PEOPLE STOP FUCKING VICTIM BLAMING. Maple doesn't have to do anything at all ifshe doesn't want to, she is entitled to ignore it and go about her day. It is not on women to constantly police men's behaviour, the sole responsibility is on men who say shit like this.
Where's the Victim Blaming?
GuildfordGal · 10/06/2021 16:50

Bullying and shaming OP

I hear you and understand your point, but words matter, and 'bullying' is a powerful one. I don't think any posters here are bullying the OP.

Even worse, it's more likely that next time she has an issue she won't even dare to ask for advice or support

Likewise, yelling at posters (not you) and calling posters 'bullies' might mean that they will be reluctant to offer advice and support, because I truly think that 98% of posts here are striving to do that.

AmandaHugenkiss · 10/06/2021 17:16

I think the comment “women like you are part of the problem” to the OP was, quite directly, victim blaming.

LakieLady · 10/06/2021 17:18

@Ninkanink

Feminism hasn’t failed. But ultimately it is up to men to change things. And it’s quite clear that they don’t want to. Not as a class, not at a societal level.
Ok, let's all just wait around until the menz decide it's time for a change, then. That'll be around never o'clock, I reckon.

Men as a whole will never voluntarily disendow themselves of male privilege. That's why women have to fight for equality, and the odds are stacked against us.

We have to drive that change, men will never do it for us.

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