'Joke' or HR matter?

[MapleSyrupMoose]

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

@MapleSyrupMoose

What do you reckon I do then? There's a good number of women, as you can see here, who are inclined to see it as just a joke/compliment, which means that there probably are many more men who think so too. Pushing back against the tide is nice and all but the risk seems to be bigger than I thought it'd be when I wrote my first post! What happens if word gets out? I may not be in the wrong but there's a fair chance others won't see it that way. What then? I worked so hard all through Uni to get the right internships and the right grades so I could get the career I wanted, and the thought that something like this could jeopardise even a bit of that is what makes me think I should forget about it and just move on.

Could you have an informal/off the record chat with HR? That will allow you to test the water and you wouldn't need to mention names.

I have done that in the past and it helped as they gave me great advice on how to tackle an issue like this and made their stance clear.

@MapleSyrupMoose do you have a mentor or someone more senior other than your LM that you can speak to in confidence about this?

If not I'd suggest finding a mentor going forward as this is exactly the sort of situation they can help you work through as we don't know your work culture and ultimately whilst it's easy for us to be keyboard warriors you're the one working there.

WTF I cannot believe so many people are saying leave it/it’s a joke. Hideous comments and not ok. What you want to do (hr, speak direct, nothing) is up to you but I had to add to chorus of voices saying this is not a joke that should be let go, brushed under carpet. Vile. I would expect any one of my male or female friends would agree and respond with Can’t understand PP who think this is ok!!???

OP have you told him directly that his comment was completely inappropriate and if it's repeated you will report him to HR?

When I was in my mid 20s a colleague smacked my bottom in the office as I walked past (there were other people around). I said "[name} that's sexual harassment!" and he said "oh oh sorry". We never spoke of it again and I would hope he never did it to anyone else.

I would do the same with your colleague and if he reacts in any way other than "oh oh sorry", you report it.

I don't think it is a joke or compliment, it's just yuck.

I think ignoring was the best response. You can’t be gaslit into second-guessing yourself, and being told you were “hysterical” or “overreacted”. Take it to HR.
As a PP said this has layers… the “Girl like you” part was to put you in your place. (Misogynistic bastard.)
“Selling nudes” (pervy fucker has to fetishize you, doesn’t he? Make YOU the dirty one here…)
Ugh!
What if you were younger and more vulnerable? What if your position at work was subservient to his? I wonder how he treats women in those jobs?

It's awful. He switched to your private email? He knows it's not a funny joke if he does that. I actually think every incident like this needs to be reported of women have any chance of progressing equality. Can you imagine someone saying that to a man?

If need be have a private chat with hr first. Good luck

Btw… it’s not a joke just because he says so… after the fact. It was an insult.

This is absolutely an example of sexual harassment in the workplace and I would report. This sort of behaviour continues because people excuse it. I’d be horrified to receive this message from a colleague.

I do understand how easy it is to say that as someone not in the situation, and how hard it is in practice. As a manager, I’d take this straight to HR if someone in my team reported it but I’m also confident that my organisation would back me to the hilt on it.

@gobackanddoitproperly

I used to work in HR. I'm glad I don't anymore. Half the issues that ended up on my desk were because people didn't TALK to each other.

It was 100% inappropriate. Of course it was. Simply say so. "That is a grossly inappropriate message to send to a colleague. Don't do it again." Job done. Show him how to act like a grownup.

Ohhh this. Yes this. People have forgotten how to communicate I think!

Please email him. If you wait longer then it'll seem odd.
Tell him it's been on your mind and want to raise it with him; that it's not OK to talk to you like that.
Do you think it's likely he'll get very defensive and start gossiping around the office about how uptight Maple is? While it's all very worthy to fight the cause and all that, if he's starts being an arse then you will have a fight (one you WILL win) and it's understandable that not everyone is in a position to do that.

If you think he'll be mature about it, accept he was a twat, apologise and you can both move on then please do it.

I am in my 50s and no way would I accept this, but I do remember being your age (sorry, I hope that doesn't sound patronising) and things do look different then.

Actually I posted that without thinking. I don't agree - I've just read a couple of the messages and yes you are all right - it shouldn't be on you to deal with his shit. HR.
Sorry. My bad.

@MapleSyrupMoose The informal chat with HR or a mentor is a good idea. Is there any professional body linked to your industry you could go to for advice or support?

More importantly, how did your idea work? Make sure you get the credit for that suggestion!

That is what really annoys me about this situation, instead of exploring your solution, you're spending time trying to decide what is the least harmful reaction to an unwanted inappropriate comment.

@BIWI

Don't you work in HR *@daisychain01*? If so, then your advice is terrible too. No reply is to accept that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. And in no work place should it be so.

(Apologies if I've got you mixed up with someone else and you don't work in HR)

No I don't work in HR, your apology accepted.

My advice - to allow the OP to be empowered in the decision that's right for her in her RW life - is not bad advice. I'm reading the room, I've read each of @MapleSyrupMoose updates and she has stated that she may not take it further.

My point is that bullying and swearing at her and people stomping their foot at her for not doing things exactly as people want, is shabby and quite immature. Even though I originally upthread suggested reporting it to HR, @MapleSyrupMoose is free to take or leave the advice.

As a Manager, a coach and mentor, I would not advise anyone to do something they feel uncomfortable about, or that coukd risk any negative repercussions that they have to live with. I would facilitate them to be able to reconcile their feelings and be able to live well with the decision they make.

I also made the point that this support thread has at least enabled the OP to explore her reaction to the event and make sense of it.

Tell him and tell HR. One day he will be older... what will he be like to female colleagues and subordinates? Would you tolerate a boy telling your daughter the same at school?

@MapleSyrupMoose don’t feel bad. I have friends who never reported rapes because it’s scary, it feels pointless and it can feel like you’re being victimised all over again. It’s never the victim’s responsibility to stop him from doing it again so don’t feel the weight of that. This is all on him.

If you don’t feel able to go to HR, I would focus on building up a women’s network in your workplace. I’d go back to the colleague you spoke to and say look, I wasn’t honest before, I was actually talking about a current colleague and I don’t feel like he was trying to be nice. I feel like he was trying to put me down. It made me uncomfortable and I think that’s a fair and valid reaction for me to have. Get her to think about it. A lot of women’s first reaction is to minimise. It’s a defence mechanism in many ways. I think it might not take much to change her mind. If you can get a few women together in a work support group to mentor each other, bounce ideas off each other and build strength together I think you would start to feel more confident and supported. You might not be able to change your workplace culture on your own, but getting women together will effect change steadily over time.

I enjoy banter with male colleagues and this clearly crosses the line. You dont need to tell HR in a way to ruin him, but you just to go on the record in case it happens to you again or others. It could be "spoken to him he apologied i accepted... dont want to pursue but would like it to be known to you" that's it, it's to make sure it doesnt happen again.

@Livingtothefull

'I've not caught up on the whole thread but I've seen TWO HR women essentially saying women should challenge this etc themselves.

I mean FFS.'

I can't tell you how depressing it is to read HR people advising the op not to take this further. Seriously, as an HR professional it is your job to deal with things like this. If you are not actively working to uphold standards of conduct in the workplace there is literally no point for you being there.

Abso-fucking-lutely.

Sexual harrassment is another form of discrimination. In some ways. it's worse than paying women less than men, because it is subtle, insidious and damaging to the mental health of the employee affected. Part of an HR role is to ensure that the organisation is not discriminating between employees, directly or indirectly.

Anyone in HR who thinks women should put up and shut up with regard to sexual harrassment is a disgrace their profession. And if they're female, a disgrace to their sex, too.

Women have had to fight for every right they have: the right to own property, the right to vote, the right to equal pay, the right not to be raped by their husbands and the right not to be harrassed by colleagues.

If we are scared to address breaches of those rights, we might as well not have them.

@LegoPirateMonkey

Ofsted report today on sexual harassment in schools. Girls are being pestered relentlessly to share nude images with male classmates, some of them contacted by a dozen boys in one evening. The report says that children often don’t report this harassment because they’re afraid of the consequences of reporting.

This is happening to our girls in schools, universities and workplaces. They’re taught to minimise it early. They’re taught that no one will step in and help them from a young age. It’s terrible for all of our children. It’s not a joke, it certainly isn’t a compliment and it’s not ok.

This saddens me so much.

In the 70s and 80s, I naively thought that future generations of males would have more respect for women and girls. If anything, they seem to have less.

Why is this? Has feminism failed?

I don’t think feminism has failed. I think this is a vicious, sustained backlash against it. It won’t fail though. Internet porn is a really horrific blow to women’s rights but I don’t think it will end them.

20 years ago, when I was in my 20s, similar situations happened often. I was so accepting of it. Took it as a compliment. It was normal. Now I read that Ofsted report and I really feel like I've failed my 9 year old daughter for doing nothing! How could I have been so blind. Its still happening, and now it's happening to children. What's worse, social media means there are really bad consequences for these children. It needs to stop.

I would report this for sure but I would be doing it in a way to pass the issue on to HR - I wouldn't be raising an official complaint or looking for compensation or whatever. I'd see this as the companies problem to deal with not mine. They employed him so they can deal with it.
It's unbelievable that some HR people say that you should deal with it yourself.

I had with creepy men. I honestly can't fucking stand them. I almost find the ones that try to be subtle or jokey about it worse than the ones who are upfront about being creeps. At least the outright creeps aren't making any faux attempt to cover up their slimy ways. I'll call them up on it every single time.

I agree with lego I think there is a backlash because feminists have gained ground.
In the same way that Trump was in part a backlash against having a black man in the White House.
There are plenty of battles left but I don't think it is a sign of failure.

He specifically replied to your personal number because he knew what he was saying was inappropriate and not suitable for a work email. That tells you everything.

Christ this is depressing.

I have a stunning 18yo DD, she's had hassle in the street & at school from both boys & older men since primary school, escalated to men at 12. She takes no shit, as much as a often shy 18 yo can.

It's just so bloody depressing to see that so many just wouldn't have her back. 😔

& for the record, I got through an often very misogynistic work environment for decades, without any HR. Not by accepting this sort of shit, but by confronting it head on every time & openly taking the pee out of them. I also made damned sure non of my staff had to deal with it either p. It did not hold me back, quite the opposite. It earned me respect & no more of the misogynist crap to deal with.

Not everyone is confident enough for that I get, definitely not in your 20s. That's what HR is for. I didn't have that luxury. It only stops & stops holding you back when you stand up to it.