'Joke' or HR matter?

[MapleSyrupMoose]

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

This is really fucking depressing

Isn't it. I went to bed feeling somewhat helpless and depressed about it all, especially next to the Guardian piece on the recently-mentioned Ofsted report that I linked a page or so back.

I'm choosing to think the 'HR people' on this thread who advise against doing anything are not HR people at all. Or if they are, then they need a new fucking job.

I had a mini chat with a female colleague today whom I'm friendly with as we're both morning people and usually have about 15 mins or so before everyone else logs on to complain about having to make our own coffee now that there's no one stopping by Starbucks before work. Asked her what she thought about that message (I said someone from my previous internship sent it to me and yes, I know I should get over it but I haven't) and she said 'Well I mean it's true look at Belle Delphine! He probably means it in a nice way but is just awkward about it.' I guess this is how it is then.

No...it just means you’ve asked a woman who doesn’t get it. There are plenty of those about, sadly, as evidenced by this thread.

@MapleSyrupMoose

I had a mini chat with a female colleague today whom I'm friendly with as we're both morning people and usually have about 15 mins or so before everyone else logs on to complain about having to make our own coffee now that there's no one stopping by Starbucks before work. Asked her what she thought about that message (I said someone from my previous internship sent it to me and yes, I know I should get over it but I haven't) and she said 'Well I mean it's true look at Belle Delphine! He probably means it in a nice way but is just awkward about it.' I guess this is how it is then.

No this isn't how it is.

This is how men get to continue behaving like this by people excusing their sexist, misogynistic comments as banter.

What he says to you was wrong and he needs to know that.

Get angry!!

He probably means it in a nice way but is just awkward about it

ffs. The thing is OP, if people don't report this kind of misogynistic shit, nothing changes. We all have a duty to make things better for the next generation of women, we really do.

What if he's already been reported before? I honestly understand your predicament, but why should men like him keep on getting away with it?

He said what he said. It was deliberate. Keeping off the work email was an acknowledgement that he was planning to say something that could get him into trouble. I imagine he smirked all the way through it.

The more I read the message he sent you the more angry I get....and you should too.

He has made it clear how he views women and their contribution to society. He doesn't value you as a fellow employee. You are there for the purpose of male pleasure only. If his behaviour goes unchecked it will continue and possibly escalate. What if were to get promoted and be responsible for managing and recruiting staff - do you think he'd treat women with respect and fairly? I very much doubt it.

You don't just have to get over it.. it is not how it should be.. you know how you felt.. don't normalise it!!

Stop focusing on this man's reasons and motivation for his message, and instead focus on the impact on you, OP, and how it made you feel- how are you feeling now? Stressed? Wary? Uncomfortable? Demeaned? Look at how it has removed trust. That's why you should talk to someone about this. Why he said it matters not, the impact on you is the issue. He needs to be made aware of the effect of what he did. So he can learn, and do better. If that's possible.

If you want to be charitable you can think of this as saving him from saying a similar thing to a more senior female colleague who would take it seriously and report him... but he won't do that, will he? He thought it was ok to say it to you though. You could show him that was a mistake.

So you're not going to do anything about this, are you @MapleSyrupMoose?

How very fucking depressing. You're letting him get away with this, which means he pretty much has a free pass to behave like this again/with other women in your company. You, then, are part of the problem.

FFS.

Get angry!!

Terrible advice. Whatever your reaction was is valid, whether that be anger, fear, humiliated or anything else. But people shouldn't "get angry" for the sake of it if that is not their reaction.

I've not read the whole thread, but my advice to the OP is simple: decide what outcome you want from this. If you want to make it official then do, but be aware of what this entails and what the outcomes might be (for him and more importantly for you). Generally things are best dealt with informally unless you've tried that and it didn't work or the offence is so outrageous it must be handled by HR (sexual assault definitely would be, a comment might be).

As the OP said in one of her posts it would have been better to have called it out straight away. But there's nothing to stop her dealing with it politely but firmly later on. Explain why something upsets you, and most people are willing to see things from your point of view.

@ChainJane

Get angry!!

Terrible advice. Whatever your reaction was is valid, whether that be anger, fear, humiliated or anything else. But people shouldn't "get angry" for the sake of it if that is not their reaction.

I've not read the whole thread, but my advice to the OP is simple: decide what outcome you want from this. If you want to make it official then do, but be aware of what this entails and what the outcomes might be (for him and more importantly for you). Generally things are best dealt with informally unless you've tried that and it didn't work or the offence is so outrageous it must be handled by HR (sexual assault definitely would be, a comment might be).

As the OP said in one of her posts it would have been better to have called it out straight away. But there's nothing to stop her dealing with it politely but firmly later on. Explain why something upsets you, and most people are willing to see things from your point of view.

It isn't terrible advice. Women should get angry that men continue to view women as sexual objects. We need to stop being nice about it.

A man has just told her that her worth lies in her ability to provide sexual pleasure for men. She should be fucking LIVID!

Too many women let it slide and offer up excuses. Quite frankly THEY are part of the problem too.

I guess this is how it is then.

Why is that?
Does it have to be this way?

Also, the fact that you didn't deal with it straight away @MapleSyrupMoose doesn't matter. Your reply could start something along the lines of "I've been thinking about your message all day, and how to deal with it - and whether or not I should be reporting you to HR for sexual harrassment. In the end, I've decided [insert your decision + reason]".

But whatever you say, you must respond to him to make it clear that it was unacceptable.

Supporting women to raise these things in the workplace is an important task for everyone, and we should all take responsibility for making it clear that this type of comment isn't ok. But anger aimed at women who for whatever reason don't feel able to do this makes me feel uncomfortable- it's hard when it's happening to you, and many women already blame themselves or think they asked for this kind of comment... Which leads to reluctance to report.

Swearing at the OP, bullying and guilting her into taking action is totally inappropriate.

Part of being a woman nowadays should be about being empowered to make one's own choices in the timescale one chooses.

If the OP decides it's right for her to take it further then she will.

If she decides she doesn't want to let this idiot get under her skin and wants to get on with her job and shine in her professional role, then that's her choice too.

I can see downsides to escalating it further, sometimes the bravest thing to do is to decide to get on and be supremely successful in spite of a misogynistic bloke minimising and patronising her. Dignity has its place.

@Kwackerly

Supporting women to raise these things in the workplace is an important task for everyone, and we should all take responsibility for making it clear that this type of comment isn't ok. But anger aimed at women who for whatever reason don't feel able to do this makes me feel uncomfortable- it's hard when it's happening to you, and many women already blame themselves or think they asked for this kind of comment... Which leads to reluctance to report.

I'm not angry at women. My anger is firmly aimed at the men who behave in this way.

I am disappointed when women excuse this type of behaviour because unfortunately, like it or not, that does make them part of the problem.

I understand the difficulty and issues around reporting but I think we all have a duty to tackle this. It's important.

Dignity has its place.

Unfortunately so does inequality.

Don't you work in HR @daisychain01? If so, then your advice is terrible too. No reply is to accept that this kind of behaviour is acceptable. And in no work place should it be so.

(Apologies if I've got you mixed up with someone else and you don't work in HR)

@daisychain01 I agree, OP has been through an unpleasant experience through absolutely no fault of her own. If she chooses not to go further with reporting, then that's absolutely her right.

It's like blaming rape victims or those who have been racially discriminated against rather than keeping them our ire focused on the perpetrators.

I don't excuse it. I'm a feminist. I don't think his message was ok. But would I go to HR? No I wouldn't, not at this point. No-one needs to be 'depressed' about the whole of womankind.

I'm struggling to see how he could have been any more offensive.

Please report this dinosaur, he sounds like a business liability as well as nasty human being. I wonder how many other inappropriate emails he has sent?

@sixthtimelucky

I don't excuse it. I'm a feminist. I don't think his message was ok. But would I go to HR? No I wouldn't, not at this point. No-one needs to be 'depressed' about the whole of womankind.

Well given i research women's career development for a living I reserve my right to be frustrated and sometime 'depressed' when I read things like this. It has a huge impact on the fight for inequality.

@SparkyLauz

Youre both young, he obviously finds you attractive I'd take it as a compliment and a joke and just let it slide. He probably didn't have a clue that this could be taken offensively. Lads that age usually don't but if he says anything else to you and you're not comfortable with it then let him know. Getting HR involved without even giving him a warning chance first would be a bit mean, he could end up losing his job for sexual harassment!

You think this is compliment??

Jesus Christ, you have issues if you really think that.

@GuildfordGal

Would you respond in the same way if a black employee came to you with a report of racism?

I've seen this point raised on a similar thread a few years ago. I'm interested in the reply.

I would always respond with the same message. I always try to create a culture where people are empowered to speak up when something is said which is not appropriate. It has far more impact than a formal investigation by HR. Sure if an employee wants to go down a formal route then that’s their right. But they are not going to get a public execution of the perpetrator. If they can handle the situation informally (either with a witness or via email etc) it will have far more impact than going to HR. Certainly if there was any repetition of the kind of comments this man made I would be down on him like a ton of bricks! But it would give me far more to go on than 1 isolated incident. I work in a very male dominated industry and regularly have to pull people up on what is or isn’t acceptable for the workplace. And I have, and will continue to act accordingly if the matter is repeated. I have dismissed several people who don’t get the message. But all I’m saying is that one incident like this, whilst is one too many, may be better dealt with by education and perhaps retraining in the first instance. Unfortunately as a woman or someone from an ethnic minority background or homosexual etc we all probably come across something inappropriate in life. It’s sad but true. We have to be prepared to speak with people who say these things and make it clear that it’s not acceptable.

What do you reckon I do then? There's a good number of women, as you can see here, who are inclined to see it as just a joke/compliment, which means that there probably are many more men who think so too. Pushing back against the tide is nice and all but the risk seems to be bigger than I thought it'd be when I wrote my first post! What happens if word gets out? I may not be in the wrong but there's a fair chance others won't see it that way. What then? I worked so hard all through Uni to get the right internships and the right grades so I could get the career I wanted, and the thought that something like this could jeopardise even a bit of that is what makes me think I should forget about it and just move on.