'Joke' or HR matter?

[MapleSyrupMoose]

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

I can't tell you how depressing it is to read HR people advising the op not to take this further.

Well of course we don't know what they really are. They could be men posting for all we know!

They could be incompetent HR staff but I've honestly never met a professional HR rep who would tell a woman to "sort it out themselves" any more than they would tell minority or disabled member of staff to sort it harassment and bigotry themselves.

There is a creep in my company who it turns out has sent inappropriate messages to almost every woman. But because people feel embarrassed or minimise it it has only been reported twice and he is still there in his well paid role

Its nearly always the way. Men doing this are never doing it as a one off. Report it and if you don't can do it for yourself do it for your fellow women and younger women in the workplace. I've supported younger staff raising issues of harassment and they always feel isolated, that its "them" and it absolutely never is.

Creepy. Report to HR.

Also, don’t email work colleagues at unsociable hours. Set your emails to delay sending until 8am or something.

OP I’d suggest replying to him but not from your personal number, instead send an email from your work address with something like ‘ message you sent to me on x date at x time to my personal number was inappropriate, sexist and intrusive, do not contact me like this again, or use my personal number for any purpose.’

Then you have a record if you want to take it further.

Ofsted report today on sexual harassment in schools. Girls are being pestered relentlessly to share nude images with male classmates, some of them contacted by a dozen boys in one evening. The report says that children often don’t report this harassment because they’re afraid of the consequences of reporting.

This is happening to our girls in schools, universities and workplaces. They’re taught to minimise it early. They’re taught that no one will step in and help them from a young age. It’s terrible for all of our children. It’s not a joke, it certainly isn’t a compliment and it’s not ok.

OP would you feel able to make a sort of anonymoised generalised message to HR that you have evidence that there has been some inappropriate behaviour and that to save it escalating (either for the victims or the perpetrator, since it is currently low-level) and can they send a company-wide reminder of the company harassment policies and how to report them? You don't need to specify that it's of a sexual nature, you can generalise it so that it could be racist for eg, and see if they take action?

If you felt up to it, you could then say to this chap, after HR have done this, "look, mate, what you did was inappropriate, as we can see. Don't do it again"

If its the first time I would speak to him face to face and tell him you're unhappy and you found it inappropriate.

Having read the news report on sexual harassment being the norm in schools I truly believe every single women needs to tackle this type of behaviour head on. We need to show our younger generation that it is not to be accepted or normalised. It isn't on and it's not acceptable.

Agree with ConfusedBear!

And OP, this incident is bound to affect the way you are around him and how you work together. If nobody knows what he did, it could look as if you are the unreasonable, awkward character, impacting negatively on work projects!

He won't lose his job over this one incident, not unless he's done it before (which he almost certainly has) and been reported to HR and warned (which he possibly hasn't).

Whose career should take the hit from this: yours or his? Because it won't be neither, you know. And if there are no consequences he will do it again. And again. And it will escalate. And someone up the food chain will ask why you didn't report it the first time and what and who you think the company policies are there for if not to put a stop to this sort of thing and give you a good working environment? This may come back to bite you when someone else complains and he says he's never done such a thing before.

Have a good look at the company policies. Read them in the light of the incident. Imagine yourself as the HR manager or CEO, because one day you will be. What would they and future you want you to do?

Nobody can protect you or correct him if you don't report. And don't give a thought to the possibility of being judged for the time you've taken thinking it through. It shows you're thoughtful and considered, not over-reacting in haste.

Reporting won't make you look bad,. it will just make him look who he is.

@Iceniii exactly. I’m thinking of women on this thread happy to tell a 20 something colleague that this man’s message is just a joke, a compliment, an awkward attempt at flirting, not something worth making a fuss over, not worth making a man feel a moments discomfort for - and then going home to their 11 year old daughter bewildered by texts from ten boys in her class asking her for naked photos. I’m sure they’d be outraged but never draw the line. Boys and girls are being conditioned to view women like this and to accept this treatment as normal. And to brush it off with ‘at least he thinks you’re attractive!’ As though that makes it ok. We have got to challenge it everywhere, at school, at home and at work. Boys and men have got to learn that this isn’t acceptable - and they’ll never learn it if there are never any consequences for them.

I could never imagine saying that to a female colleague, firstly because it's the sort of thing that could get me in trouble, and secondly because it's a bit seedy.

How depressing that your first thought is 'it could get me into trouble' and not that it is completely fucking inappropriate.

As for these so called HR professionals telling the OP to leave it - you should be utterly ashamed of yourselves.

I work in a sector which is very errm open minded etc, and that message would be considered way off.

But for future ref and to make yourself feel stronger, practice in your head the huge middle ground between laughing at this non-joke and going straight to HR. Practice saying or writing ‘well that was awkward, let’s leave that sort of talk out of it and move on with the project’. ‘Different sense of humour. Didn’t appreciate that, but let’s move on’. ‘Not comfortable with that, boundaries in place please!’

And if it continues ‘I did say I was not happy with this sort of message. Please stay professional’. ‘Stop now. I mean it’.

Then you can be ready to respond, and it is dealt with.

Good luck OP.

Could someone who thinks was a joke, explain where the funny is please? I don't get it.

OP's colleague thinks that women in his workplace are a joke. That's what I got. That's not humorous. It tells us that this bloke mentally undresses his female colleagues - and is blithely, unashamedly happy to announce, to people he doesn't know, that he does this.

OP, I do agree that learning some step-by-step lines off by heart, with which to assert your boundaries, so you have them ready, is a really good idea. Then you can stop men like this in their tracks. Then escalate. One, two, three, now off to HR with the evidence.

What UptheJunktion says but without the please and thank you! We don't need to beg or bargain for respect in the workplace.

It's a right, not a privilege. This man will not be doing OP a favour by stopping.

But honestly, what this thread, plus the news reports on sexual harassment in schools, tell me, is that things have gone backwards for women. In education and in the workplace.

And women are being told 'don't make a fuss dear, you might dent the reputation of someone more important than you.'

That might damage his chance of realising his right to a career twice as well paid and prestigious as yours! How could you even imagine doing that!

Sorry, but is is not ‘different humour’. It is not humour at all. What it is is misogynistic, condescending and completely inappropriate.

How can one go on to have a professional relationship with someone who, in response to a business suggestion, thinks that you are better able to sell nudes of yourself?!

The more I think about this, the more it needs both responding to directly and reporting.

I fail to see how anybody thinks this was a joke!

He's clearly intimidated by her good ideas and his message was totally designed to put her in her place.

They are the same age in the same role and he needs to belittle her to feel better about himself.

Absolutely report! This behaviour won't change and you don't want to work with this guy, if he gets away with it you still have a colleague who could start seething with inferiority. A paper trail can do nothing but help you.

It's inappropriate, however I'd let it go this once but tell him if it happens again it will go further.

This thread does confirm the OFSTED report about how sexual harassment has become normalised amongst many young people.

I started work in an age when page 3 still existed but no one would have tolerated that text (well, its equivalent, even then.

It's the combination of writing about you not needing to work coupled with the comments about making money from your body which makes it very sexist and inappropriate. And the fact he replied to a work email to your personal phone. It could be explosive if you took it to HR. Here is what I would do...

Keep the text message and take a screen shot picture of it too. Keep your distance from him and just be civil if you ever find yourself in his company. Make sure you are never alone with him - take an assistant if you have meetings. If he rings it up, just calmly reply that you didn't appreciate the comment. Keep your ear to the ground and listen out for any talk of him being inappropriate in any way to other colleagues. If he does anything inappropriate again to others to towards you, take evidence and then go to HR with it all.

"There is a really insidious idea that women are somehow privileged to be able to make money from stuff like onlyfans and that it’s completely normal. Men making comments like that are showing how they think of women and a woman’s role in the workplace. The kind of stuff done to women in pornography is degrading, humiliating torture. It’s conditioning men to see women in a really disturbing light. The fact that he’s normalised it enough in his head to think this is an ok thing to say to a colleague, that he can laugh it off as a ‘joke’ is grim. I worry so much especially for teenage girls and younger women entering further education or work to be encountering this attitude all the time, that tells them they should be taking off their clothes and sticking things up themselves for men’s entertainment and that this makes them lucky and they should be grateful for the opportunity and stop taking up men’s places and men’s jobs. Sometimes I feel like we haven’t made any progress at all. It’s deeply depressing.

And yes, by the way, this should absolutely be reported to HR and he should be embarrassed enough to never do it again. What a fucking creep."

THIS

The more I see this, the worse it gets. I agree it was about putting yiu back in your sex object box & gobsmacked that so many think this was acceptable. And it's a compliment Jeez some of you need to have a serious word about your boundaries as they are skewed AF 😔

The other thing that bugs me & suggests he has form & knew exactly what he was doing, was the fact he switched from business email to a private message

I would have slapped his sorry ass down there & then & probably not reported, but actually with jerks like this that's the wrong thing too, because he needs HR to kick his backside & stop his nasty sexist assed behaviour

You're age & his is very relevant. You're not at an age where you can confidently kick his ass into touch & he's not an old dinosaur who has got away with this shit so long he doesn't know any better. He really should know better at that age

I used to have similar comments from a work colleague. I reported him and a week later I was made redundant.

I was listening to part of a R programme this week about how employees and HR people are hopelessly equipped to deal with sexist harassment in the workplace.

NewlyGranny (congratulations on that!)

I heartily agree we do not need to beg for respect and decent behaviour - but often part of assertiveness is not letting our own standards of manners and good behaviour fall, and sometimes the nuanced response can bear a 'please' - sometimes better as a steely order.

I notice Americans, for example, are much better at being assertive and direct without being aggressive. We are socialised to 'be nice'. or else to 'Call someone out', or make a passive aggressive response, or cry or shout, or report. A range of confident, assertive responses can make us feel much stronger.

As a PP said, men need to hear women telling them clearly and directly what is not acceptable. Other women need to hear that.

Strength is a gathering force.

One of the key things I heard said on the R4 programme was that training in the workplace could have the effect of focussing witnesses to harassment to stand in solidarity with the victim, which then makes it much easier if it i taken to HR - allies and witnesses.

This is really fucking depressing.