'Joke' or HR matter?

[MapleSyrupMoose]

New name as I don't want this linked to my other posts.

I absolutely adore my job and can sometimes get a bit obsessive about new projects. Last week, I was up cycling in the wee hours of the morning, had a sudden idea, and sent an email to a colleague of mine (work email address) regarding this. He almost immediately sent a message to my personal phone number saying, 'Wow you're up early', followed by one saying, 'I don't know why women like you bother working, you could probably sell nudes online and make a fortune'. I ignored him. We had a teams meeting a few hours later and I largely ignored him too. He then sent a message saying, 'Come on, it's just a joke'!

Would I be overreacting if I reported this to HR? Or should I just take it as a 'joke' and move on? We're about the same age (20s but I'm not sure if that matters) in the same role.

@WineIsMyMainVice

HR Manager here - I would give him the benefit of the doubt for this one time only. But you need to make him aware that this made you feel uncomfortable and you don’t want such comments in the future, thank you very much!!! If he says anything like that again, then it’s completely unacceptable and should definitely be reported. If you do it via email you have a trail, but if you decide to say it verbally make a note of the date and time that you said it to him, just in case. You don’t have to put up with this from a colleague.

Would you respond in the same way if a black employee came to you with a report of racism?

Would you respond in the same way if a black employee came to you with a report of racism?

I've seen this point raised on a similar thread a few years ago. I'm interested in the reply.

www.theguardian.com/education/2021/jun/10/sexual-harassment-is-a-routine-part-of-life-schoolchildren-tell-ofsted

HR Manager here - I would give him the benefit of the doubt for this one time only

Women and girls deserve better.

This shit should be reported Every. Fucking.Time.

@MapleSyrupMoose Based on my own experience I would report to HR because this is probably going to affect how you interact with him in the future and you don't want that to reflect badly on you. This was clearly inappropriate so is a good starting point to report to HR. If you warn him off then that gives him chance to become more subtle in how he tries to undermine you (again based on my own experience). And subtle things are much harder to report.

That's what I would say to me in the past if I had a time machine.

I've not caught up on the whole thread but I've seen TWO HR women essentially saying women should challenge this etc themselves.

I mean FFS.

What about little things like power dynamics, in and out groups, female and male socialisation?

This is reflective of society isn't it.

Girls- dress modestly. You need to look out for yourself. If anything happens- confront him!!!

Women. No sense of humour?! Banter is fun. Ignore. It's a compliment! Etc etc.

Why is the onus always on us to somehow handle inappropriate behaviour directed at us by men?

I remember when I was a girl, flashing was a thing to 'laugh off'.

I've been in workplaces where there were discussions about prostitution, strip clubs. Stuff like that. It's difficult. In a male dominated workplace the consequences of saying anything can be major.

I can't believe hr people think it's not a big deal. Just tell him you don't like it. Erm. Real life isn't like that!

There were incidents at a work party that the women told me about (which was weird! Being seen like that).

Anyway. It was what should we do? Was it bad? Should we say anything? We're upset but don't know what to do.

I said erm. I don't know either. Said I'll talk to my boss.

Had to say to him look I'm going to tell you something and it's not funny so don't laugh.

Of course he laughed. I pressed that it wasn't funny for them.

Anyway he went to HR and the guy was out the door that afternoon.

The dynamics with this stuff esp in male dominated environments are not easy.

Telling women to sort it out themselves is terrible.

His comments fall under sex discrimination, in that he said something inappropriate on the grounds of your sex. You need to report it. It doesn't matter if it was a one-off or whether he meant it as a joke. People who behave in this way cannot be allowed to get away with it, undoubtedly the behaviour will escalate.
Also inappropriate that you sent a message using work email and he replied using personal phone.

@MapleSyrupMoose

Yes, I sent an email saying, 'Was out cycling earlier today and thought of something. How about (possible solution to work problem)?' at 07:45. He has my personal number because we're in a WhatsApp group with a few other colleagues (it was supposed to be a Starbucks order group but it's been dead since I joined as I joined the company mid-pandemic but I was still added to it anyway).

To add to my previous comment, you consenting to be in a work whatsapp group does not mean he can take your number from it and contact you personally.

@TriteMale it isn’t the same. The woman didn’t make that comment to you in response to a work-related idea you had. Can you see how insulting and demeaning it is for a man to reply to a woman’s suggested solution to a work issue by telling her she should do porn instead of this job?

There is a massive difference between chippendales and internet pornography. A huge power imbalance in favour of men. 98% of sexual crime is committed by men. Sexual harassment of women by men is intimidating, insidious and absolutely rife - it is not the same in reverse.

@KarmaStar what is complimentary about a man responding to a woman’s work-related suggestion by telling her she should sell nudes online instead? It’s dismissive of her role, it’s telling her where he thinks she belongs. It’s humiliating. None of us should be flattered because a man thinks all we’re good for is porn. She was trying to engage him in a discussion about a work problem. He told her to take her clothes off. It’s not a compliment; it’s not intended as one. It’s a put-down.

@MapleSyrupMoose

Looking back, I think my main mistake here is that I should've probably let him know instantly that I felt it was inappropriate instead of freezing up and ignoring the message. I also wonder if I've let too much time pass that me saying anything to him now would just look like I've spent so long dwelling on a 'joke'. Oh well.

It's a perfectly valid response to take time to process your feelings of anger and indignation at something that must have felt like a punch in the stomach to you at the time.

There is no need to feel pressurised into taking further action if your gut says you need to move on from it, because you have to work with this person. You mustn't jeopardise your hard won position for a toe rag like him, and you shouldn't feel shame or guilt if this causes you personal conflict. Maybe let the dust settle and things will become clearer now you know there are options (the "Do Nothing" option is one choice you can empower yourself to make).

Hopefully having this chat on here has helped you make sense of a situation that you should never have been confronted with, and know that you shouldn't ever have to put up with it.

You originated the contact with him because you wanted to talk about a project idea and thought it would be good to share it with him. You never expected to receive a message about being a porn star in return. I often talk my ideas through with a couple of trusted colleagues who happen to be males and they do likewise. I'd feel betrayed and lose trust if they pulled a stunt like that on me, because I'd like to think they respect me. I can empathise with how you are feeling.

Agree with @ConfusedBear

Yup, report. Totally inappropriate.

id ignore it ,unless it happened again , i couldnt be bothered with all the aggro of reporting it and the ensuing atmosphere it would cause , . if he mentioned it to me again id just say you found it insulting and inappropriate

@MapleSyrupMoose

I've read the whole thread and it feels like shit but I don't think I'll be reporting him. Seems like there's a not insignificant chance that it may be viewed as a compliment/joke, and I cannot run the risk of being ostracised for it. People don't say it here but back in Uni, my peers were already joking about how women in our industry were mostly 'diversity hires' or 'using their sexuality to get to the top' and, seeing the bigger picture, I do agree with PP that this might be what I'll be up against if I do make a report. Thanks for all your time.

This really saddens me.

This is how men get away with sexist, misogynist behaviour - by making women afraid to challenge it.

I hope that, at the very least, you will let him know that it is inappropriate.

[quote LivingInThe80s]@Rubbishatchoosingusernames Suggesting a woman give up her job to be a whore is a 'nonevent' to you? What sort of sick world do you inhabit where suggesting a colleague is worth nothing more than being a whore is a 'nonevent' in your world? Interesting that you haven't had the guts to say how you'd feel if someone suggested your daughter become a whore instead of work. Interesting you avoided answering those questions.

No doubt sexist, misogynist toxic men like you are 'amazed' that women are telling you this is wrong.[/quote]
Some men simply don't see it as wrong because admitting it's wrong means they are in the wrong, too.

The poor dears, it must be so hard for them to realise that the world is moving on and they're going to have to change their ways.

Losing millennia of male privilege must be so hard for them to bear.

However, I've had similar comments from female colleagues when I used to use the company gym after work and walk back to the changing room in my shorts and sweaty top. One female colleague said "well, if it doesn't work out here you can always become a chippendale, haha", and tbh it did make me laugh, although really it's no better than OP's example.

Really it isn't. We have a completely different relationship to our female colleagues, and some things we say to them would be totally inappropriate if we said them to a man. The comparison there would be if you had a male colleague who used the gym a lot and someone said the Chippendale comment to him. Completely inappropriate. And also, IMO, HR worthy.

@WineIsMyMainVice you're an HR manager perhaps you fancy doing an AMA because i have SO many questions.

Am very interested in the reply to pp up there asking if this was a racist comment. How would you react?

And i'm pretty glad you're not my HR manager. Where i work this kind of thing is absolutely not tolerated. I've been in meetings where some comment had been totally near the knuckle (from a young newbie, male) and he was told, by the team leader - in the meeting, in front of everyone, that that kind of thing might fly elsewhere and in different situations, but not at work.

What if this is part of a pattern and you blithely say, every time "oh, it's a one-off no need to report to me"? What part of everyday sexism and the problems many many women (and minorities, and bloody hell even - gasp - men) experience in the workplace? Shrug? because "this one isn't so bad"?

Not very professional.

I've been in workplaces where there were discussions about prostitution, strip clubs. Stuff like that. It's difficult. In a male dominated workplace the consequences of saying anything can be major.

I worked in a very male-dominated field, for an organisation that was positively backward in its attitudes. I was the first woman to be appointed in that role. A couple of days before I started, my colleagues were told that they needed to take down the page 3 calendar that was on the wall of the office. It was totally male dominated and, frankly, a bit backward.

Within my first week, I was challenging sexist (and racist, and homophobic) comments. It took about 6 months for (most of) them to learn that that sort of shite was unacceptable. They realised I was not to be messed with, and that I was excellent at my job.

One man was slow on the uptake and persisted. By calling him on it, every single time, these comments became less and less frequent. He got cunning about it, and started only to make them when there was no-one else around. I still called him on it. His peers started to tell him he was out of order.

After about 2 years, and after a lot of pressure from the union, they introduced a sexual harassment policy. Two days after it was approved, and following another puerile, smutty and misogynistic remark, I was finally able to say to him "There is now a policy in place about this sort of behaviour, and I will make full use of it if you ever say anything like that to me again".

He was stunned, and never made another inappropriate comment within my earshot from then until the day he retired.

Things can change, but it takes determination and effort. Fear of "consequences" is playing right into the hands of these idiots. Women have more protection in law than ever before and no employer wants to risk having to defend inaction against harassment in a tribunal.

Women have fought long and hard for these changes. And other women just accepting harassment because of "consequences" is undermining everything they achieved.

Really sorry to hear that you aren’t going to report it because you don’t feel you’ll be taken seriously.

Is there a senior woman that you trust that you could speak with this about in confidence, rather than going straight to HR, to help inform your decision about best ways to handle it?

I'm sorry OP, that is shit.

You should report it though I understand if you don't want to. Definitely respond & tell him you understand that he meant it as a joke but there was nothing funny about it & it demeans your career. Tel him you will report any future incidents to HR & perhaps send him some reading links. You hope to continue a decent work relationship & you're willing to overlook this time. His reaction will show what you need to know

It was 100% inappropriate. Of course it was. Simply say so. "That is a grossly inappropriate message to send to a colleague. Don't do it again." Job done. Show him how to act like a grownup.

So its the victim's job to also manage the behaviour of her harasser? Its not acceptable behaviour toward a colleague. Why is harassment so often the victim's problem to solve? If he stole money from her instead of her feelings of comfort and safety in the workplace would you still say "sort it out yourself"?

Women are bludgeoned into tolerating and accepting lower and medium grade harassment rather than be seen to make a fuss. It becomes a sliding scale, keeps us in our place and we should push back, call it out, not accept being called a "nuisance" or "no fun" or "prudes". Those of us doing it should help other women to do the same.

By calling him on it, every single time, these comments became less and less frequent

Exactly this!

Women have fought long and hard for these changes. And other women just accepting harassment because of "consequences" is undermining everything they achieved.

And exactly this. I'm also in a male dominated industry and like many of my generation I'd hoped that standing up to this shit would make it better for my daughters' generation.

In many respects 'though I think things are worse. There are policies in place but women are afraid to use them, harassment is normalised in schools and many other places. I'm not quite sure what has gone wrong and its tempting to put it down to the prevalence of SM facilitating harassment but I think there is also a major issue of complacency and young women believe the propaganda that we have equality when we simply don't. A fact they typically discover big time when starting families.

Sickening that women on here have convinced you not to report it. Things will never change unless you do.

'I've not caught up on the whole thread but I've seen TWO HR women essentially saying women should challenge this etc themselves.

I mean FFS.'

I can't tell you how depressing it is to read HR people advising the op not to take this further. Seriously, as an HR professional it is your job to deal with things like this. If you are not actively working to uphold standards of conduct in the workplace there is literally no point for you being there.

Please report this to HR. There is a creep in my company who it turns out has sent inappropriate messages to almost every woman. But because people feel embarrassed or minimise it it has only been reported twice and he is still there in his well paid role. Men do not have the right to talk to women like this and we don’t have to put up with it. Please report so it is noted and that way if he does it to someone else it can be dealt with as a pattern of behaviour.