Another reluctant ‘groom’

[Unlovedandinsecure]

Unlovedandinsecure

Hi all,

Been with my partner for a long time, have children, he owns the house but I work full time. For a long time I didn’t think about marriage as was busy working and raising my children, so I was otherwise occupied! Then a few years ago I started thinking about our future and how we are not related so cannot make decisions for each other etc. I brought this up to DP and he said something along the lines of ‘I’ll do things at my own pace’.

We had a pretty rocky patch after that as I felt he had had enough time to know what he wanted but things improved and he made noises about marriage being a possibility. Today things have come to a head and I have told him our relationship is over as he had been deceitful - he has no intention of proposing but hasn’t had the decency to let me know!

I completely understand that some people don’t want marriage and that’s fine. What isn’t fine is not being honest and upfront about it.

I’m heartbroken and angry in equal measure as if I’d been told the truth from the outset I could have made a decision as to whether to stay or go. It baffles me how you can claim to love a person but intentionally hurt them.

I know these threads are ten a penny but just wanted some advice, even if it’s to tell me how stupid I have been!

@Kokeshi123

I don't get the idea of being "traditional" enough to want to wait passively for an unprompted proposal, but not traditional enough to stand your ground and insist on legal commitment before having children.

Well exactly. Want to get married? Then ask them!

Self-evidently he does not want to marry the OP. He’s more or less got what he wanted out of her now - children close to independence and someone to have ensured bringing the children up was as simple and secure as possible. He won’t need the OP for much longer and clearly doesn’t love her enough to promise to commit to her for the whole of their lives, regardless of need.

We need to teach our daughters to be old fashioned and not entertain the idea of having children without marriage.

Really? Good god, is that really how far we’ve come!!

We should

1. Teach our daughters to take responsibility for their own finances and protecting their rights , whether that be within marriage, or not. Men have held the balance of power in relationships for far too long. They’re not going to give that up unless woman start protecting themselves assertively, rather than passively accepting the status quo until it’s too late.
2. Teach our sons not to be dicks.

Oh give over @Summersnake, it's that poisonous Mills and Boon nonsense that gets wo.en into these sorts of predicaments in the first place.

Asking someone to get married does not make you less feminine. If he says yes them you are wanted, arent you.

And if you must have the down on one knee proposal then delay damaging your financial independence til you do!

Men are never going to give up the power in relationships. By airily waving away marriage as a “piece of paper” women have happily given away a huge chunk of the power they did have. We’ve gone backwards.

Yes, we need to teach our sons not to be dicks - and to marry the mothers of their children.

You’re referring to a time without contraception or legalised abortion, that’s what caused those dreadful things.

The 60s is when the pill came out. And not all women would choose an abortion if they were going to be single mums and nor should there be a social stigma for them to.

I don't think we should hark back to earlier times where women's options were severely limited and we were just starting to get somewhere in the fight for equality.

The swing away from marriage first is bad for women in some ways in the modern world, but the solution isn't to go back to stigmatising having children out of marriage.

What we actually need is for men to commonly take an equal share and hit on the child-rearing. So that it isn't the case that women get fucked over by "career breaks" and going part-time.

I haven't read the whole thread but would advise you to get a really good divorce lawyer even though you're not married.

Why should you walk away with nothing after contributing to the household for all these years?

To quote my dear old nan, he's had the milk without paying for the cow (or something like that).I used to hate that phrase but now see so many women in your position I realise how true it is.

I don't think women realise how important it is to ensure they have financial security when they move in with a man (or another woman who has more earning power). It seems to be some sort of ingrained superpower in men. We're so busy looking after children (and men) we forget to look after ourselves.

Good luck, OP, and get the great divorce lawyer quietly and quickly.

@Blossomtoes by your reckoning that puts ALL women’s power into the proviso of entering into a marriage contract. There are other, much better ways to protect yourself financially. It’s such a backwards step to say to women that the best way of protecting yourself is marriage.
Many women have lives and careers before we settle down. Be savvy, have your own income, enter into joint ownership. There is life before, other and after marriage.
One party to a relationship should not be dependent on marriage to the other for security.

Your DC are adults and neither of you wanted to marry for years and years. He’s not deceitful. He just doesn’t see a point in marriage.

@Unlovedandinsecure

No, I don’t have savings enough to buy anywhere, sadly. That’s yet another reason I pushed for an honest answer, so I am clear in my mind as to what I need to do going forward.

So you're not financially independent and have paid for a house that you have no claim over.

[quote Velvian]@JinglingHellsBells of course he can, but I doubt very much that he will. If they break up, he is unlikely to leave his house to her is he?

It is all dependent on OP doing his bidding with no financial security at all. It is shitty, duplicitous behaviour. How many women believe in 'common law marriage' and how did that myth come about and for what purpose?[/quote]
Funnily enough, I was discussing this with friends a couple of weeks ago and when she said ‘but you are his common law wife’ two of us corrected her and said there’s no such thing. She was visibly shocked.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to offer advice. I can’t reply to everyone as I’m working but it is appreciated.

And yes, I earn my own money and have a pension. My children are of the age where they wouldn’t be uprooted etc.

Women have babies that is biological fact. They take maternity leave and too often become the defacto? default parent. This leads them to go part time/ pass up promtion opportunites or even give up paid work ccompletely. When men do these things as often as women do then amd only then is marriage a piece of paper.

@Muchmorethan yes I am financially independent. That isn’t something only homeowners are? Lots of people rent either through circumstance or choice.

My idea of financial independence is earning and spending your own money.

you never know what’s round the corner.

Very true. Does he have a will? What does he think will happen if he dies? Usually when people care about each other they want to protect each other against the unexpected. Marriage can be a protection, so is making a will.

But some people care more about their assets than about their partner.

@Blossomtoes You've a bit out of touch re contraception.
Condoms were available in the early 1900s. My gran was born in the 1890s and managed to have 3 children only. My parents married in the 1940s and again, used condoms although my Mum could have had the Pill when she was in her 40s, or used a diaphram which was available before the Pill.

Why do you want to marry OP, if not financial security? In your position I would ask for shared ownership of the house you've paid into. After this long, I think the horse has bolted for a romantic proposal.

[quote Unlovedandinsecure]@Muchmorethan yes I am financially independent. That isn’t something only homeowners are? Lots of people rent either through circumstance or choice.

My idea of financial independence is earning and spending your own money.[/quote]
I am sorry but being in your 40s and having renting as your only option after paying towards someone else's mortgage, is not being financially independent as it removes choice- to own your own home.
Yes, at a basic level you could put a roof over your head, but you'd always be wondering if the landlord would sell up, if you'd lose your job, and how you could pay for it on a pension.

My idea of financial independence is earning and spending your own money.

There is more to financial independence than that. You shared a domestic economy that has enabled him to own a house but not you. You living in your home depends on him and you can't afford to buy anything similar by yourself. Doesn't sound as if you are financially independent or financially equal after all these years.

@roarfeckingroarr

Why do you want to marry OP, if not financial security? In your position I would ask for shared ownership of the house you've paid into. After this long, I think the horse has bolted for a romantic proposal.

Lots of people are, I guess rightly commenting that he won’t marry because he doesn’t want to give you that financial security. He won’t want to share the home with you either. He’s treating you badly in this, youve given up much of your financial security in order to look after your children.

Time to wise up and play hard ball. I’d do this before you split up and do what the above says. Get a solicitor and put pressure on to share ownership of the house. This is your one chance to shame him, as he should be ashamed in my opinion. He’s being mean and selfish.

As soon as youv’e split up he will lock down all of this assets and as you are not married you will be shafted quite honestly. Not your fault though. The system isn’t great.

The swing away from marriage first is bad for women in some ways in the modern world, but the solution isn't to go back to stigmatising having children out of marriage

Where did I say it was the solution? I simply pointed out that we’ve gone backwards. We’ve thrown the baby out with the bath water and women, as always, are the losers.

Hmm. I have 2 suggestions:
1 you make an appt at a solicitor's for both of you to make a will or
2 you make an appt at the registry office for a wedding, just you two, you tell him and see if he turns up.
It would at least force the issue.
Op I've read all your posts but I'm not clear on how much you actually want to be with him?

It’s often women who see the good in people too and aren’t putting themselves first. They don’t want to push marriage onto someone and accept this when having children. They are being nice! Someone more selfish and savvy would have got that man down the aisle. Never thought I’d say this, but I thought it was more fair, and respectful, never to push anyone into marriage. But then I look around me and the women who persuaded their men (and they did persuade them) - are in a much better position now.

We as woman need to teacher our daughters to be more selfish! A friend of mine is planning children right now with a lovely man. I actually strongly advised her to get married, but she knew her man was ‘a bit reluctant’ and didn’t want to push it. She’s approaching 40 and he’s keen to have children. I tried to say, if he’s keen for you to have children, he cannot block you from marriage as you, as a woman, are going to be vulnerable from now on. She couldn’t hear it, as basically she is really nice and couldn’t see that protecting herself was totally fine.

@Tobebythesea

Are you paying towards the mortgage? If so, stop and start saving.

Even if she isn't, her earnings will have been subsidising other family expenses presumably? So going forward OP, you need your interests to be recognised. However you achieve this is another matter, as putting you on the deeds to the house and/or marriage is the obvious way. Does he realise that you can get married without any fuss and almost zero expense in a Registry Office with a couple of witnesses? There are some benefits to his estate/your children, in marrying you as for instance the cgt allowance passes from spouse to spouse in the event of the first death so no tax is payable. Maybe he hasn't thought through all the financial angles, presuming he cares about his offspring longterm, if not your relationship so much? It is very sad that you have done all the hard work i.e. raised the kids and worked and yet seemingly have little claim on the assets.

You're the one who said:

Society used to be set up to protect women. Back in the day when it was frowned on to have children outside marriage a woman in this position would have been rare.

We should
1. Teach our daughters to take responsibility for their own finances and protecting their rights , whether that be within marriage, or not. Men have held the balance of power in relationships for far too long. They’re not going to give that up unless woman start protecting themselves assertively, rather than passively accepting the status quo until it’s too late.
2. Teach our sons not to be dicks.

Absolutely. And the legal implications of being married or not needs to be taught alongside sex education in schools: how to protect yourself from unwanted pregnancy; STIs and financial ruin.