Maggie Thatcher, the iron lady

[Stressedout65]

Not an aibu know, but just watched Mrs Thatcher v The Miners on C5 from last night. I remember the strike vividly but felt far removed from it as we weren't part of a mining community.
For those who can remember her, good or bad for Britain? Admire her or hate her? I can't decide. Part of me thinks she was a complete & utter bitch, another part of me thinks she had more balls than all the wet blankets currently running the country now or since

Supporting a policy isn’t quite the same thing as being its architect @DynamoKev.

He said The Bill was a prime election commitment, and my constituents cannot understand why it is not already on the statute book. In my area a fairly enlightened local authority is selling council houses and implementing a series of reasonable policies. That is not universally so.

I was one of his constituents at the time and for every one who thought it was a brilliant idea, there were two who were horrified.

@Blossomtoes

Supporting a policy isn’t quite the same thing as being its architect *@DynamoKev*.

He said The Bill was a prime election commitment, and my constituents cannot understand why it is not already on the statute book. In my area a fairly enlightened local authority is selling council houses and implementing a series of reasonable policies. That is not universally so.

I was one of his constituents at the time and for every one who thought it was a brilliant idea, there were two who were horrified.

Suit yourself I guess its semantics - from my viewpoint he appears to have been pretty much in the thick of it. I'm resentful of the retrospective recasting of him as some kind of decent cricket loving grey man. No-one gets to be boss of the Tory party without stepping on a few people, and his attitude to pensioners in January 1987 was absolutely despicable and filthy - and was only overturned following intervention by (of all people) Thatcher who realised it was making her even more unpopular. Major was just as much of a nasty piece of work at the time when it mattered.

True. If Edwina Curry was his greatest sin

I never voted for her but... I grew up in the 1960s and 70s in Labour run Scotland. Paradise it was not. Dirty and depressing and corrupt

I can't stand Thatcher.
I think though she would have handled the pandemic much better than it has been handled. She was a scientists and would have understood that you can not choose between deaths and the economy, that both are inextricably linked.
Boris Johnson seemed to think you could ignore deaths and choose the economy. But high deaths leads to a buggered economy anyway. Worst of both worlds.

I'm resentful of the retrospective recasting of him as some kind of decent cricket loving grey man

I don’t think pointing out his achievements is doing anything of the sort. It’s called balance. What I can say from personal experience is that he was a superb constituency MP. It’s a shame his successor isn’t a fraction as good.

As a a 10-year old in a working class northern city, I celebrated when she was elected as we had a woman PM, and didn't really get party politics or understand why my mum didn't seem as pleased as I was.

As a teenager in the 80s I was the opposite of rebel so I thought she did great with the Falklands and putting those naughty miners in their place.

When I became the first person in my family to go to uni in the late 80s and made friends with people with different backgrounds to me, my eyes opened and I actually thought through my values and took notice of what was happening in the nation. Came to the rapid realisation that I disagreed on just about every point with That Woman.

I still do stand in opposition to virtually everything she did (Falklands excepting) and her view that you could run a country with a housewife's mindset. Knew the cost of everything but the value of nothing. However, time has given me some perspective to say that I respect her for making it to the leader of the party in the 70s, for working bloody hard and being competent at what she did. You knew what she stood for and she defended her position. She certainly would not have accepted the chaotic nature of today's Conservative government, and handbags would have been swung.

Caitlin Moran wrote a very good column for the Times after Thatcher died, giving her perspective on growing up at that time. I think it's one of her better, more serious pieces. It seems it's still stuck behind a paywall, but if you get the chance to read it then I'd recommend it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-riots-rats-and-sad-silent-queues-my-life-under-thatcher-rn67q5w0w5n

Thatcher and Saville? its arguable she nor the security services knew nothing of his behaviour, not likely but possible.

What isn't deniable is that she stopped General Pinochet being tried for mass murder, a fellow right wing dictator, which what thatcher was.

She was highly unpopular, destined to be a one term PM... until she saw the chance of a military victory and had the Belgrano sunk, 300 young conscripts died and the Belgrano was 30 miles outside the UKs imposed exclusion zone, it was murder.

There was also no manifesto promise to destroy the coal industry and throw 1000s onto the scrap heap.

I love her for getting rid of that god-awful, always slightly on the turn playground milk, but pretty much hate her for everything else. Certainly influential, but not beneficial.

She did a lot of bad things, and it's basically down to her Right to Buy and then not replacing Council housing that we currently have our massive housing shortage. But at least she was sensible on EU membership.

The Right to Buy isn't the issue on the housing market the issue is simply not enough new houses being built.

The rise of the private landlord artificially inflating the prices of houses, esp first time buyer houses.

In the late 60s and into the 70s hourly paid tradesmen couldn't get a mortgage. You could only get a mortgage if you were in a salaried job.
Right to Buy changed that.

I got my first job during the miner's strike, the miner's families were treated like dirt. I worked for the then DHSS & claimed from miner's families were dumped in boxes & locked in a room. Thatcher wanted to starve them out, I stuck it 4 weeks & left. Later in the strike I got a job at HMRC & worked in the same building as the NUM offices & Arthur Scargill, every time there was a ballot the car park was full of striking miners, they were always really respectful to staff entering & leaving the building even though they gave as good as they got from the police. I've lived in an ex mining community & they are still suffering over 35 years later. Thatcher didn't care, she just wanted to bring them down & make an example of them.

@Lockdownbear

The Right to Buy isn't the issue on the housing market the issue is simply not enough new houses being built.

The rise of the private landlord artificially inflating the prices of houses, esp first time buyer houses.

In the late 60s and into the 70s hourly paid tradesmen couldn't get a mortgage. You could only get a mortgage if you were in a salaried job.
Right to Buy changed that.

Rubbish, my hourly-paid dad (and mum) got a mortgage in 1963.

The main problem with Right to Buy was making it virtually impossible for local authorities to reinvest the proceeds to build more houses. As a consequence the housing market has dramatically changed shape to be either private rental or buying for most people. Council houses used to be perfectly valid alternatives to private rental or buying and you didn't need to be on the bones of your arse to qualify for one.

Vicousjackdaw it's true, if Ogreave had never happened then South Yorkshire Police would never have got away with Hillsborough & the Rotherham sex abuse cases. South Yorkshire Police are rotten to the core, should have been disbanded & the Manpower shared over adjoining forces.

@Blossomtoes

I'm resentful of the retrospective recasting of him as some kind of decent cricket loving grey man

I don’t think pointing out his achievements is doing anything of the sort. It’s called balance. What I can say from personal experience is that he was a superb constituency MP. It’s a shame his successor isn’t a fraction as good.

Fair enough - and although I didn't support them I obviously do accept that Thatcher and Major did some good things (not many though).

the Rotherham sex abuse cases. I take you don't follow Maggie Oliver on Twitter then. This sort of abuse continues all over the country.

[quote funnelfanjo]As a a 10-year old in a working class northern city, I celebrated when she was elected as we had a woman PM, and didn't really get party politics or understand why my mum didn't seem as pleased as I was.

As a teenager in the 80s I was the opposite of rebel so I thought she did great with the Falklands and putting those naughty miners in their place.

When I became the first person in my family to go to uni in the late 80s and made friends with people with different backgrounds to me, my eyes opened and I actually thought through my values and took notice of what was happening in the nation. Came to the rapid realisation that I disagreed on just about every point with That Woman.

I still do stand in opposition to virtually everything she did (Falklands excepting) and her view that you could run a country with a housewife's mindset. Knew the cost of everything but the value of nothing. However, time has given me some perspective to say that I respect her for making it to the leader of the party in the 70s, for working bloody hard and being competent at what she did. You knew what she stood for and she defended her position. She certainly would not have accepted the chaotic nature of today's Conservative government, and handbags would have been swung.

Caitlin Moran wrote a very good column for the Times after Thatcher died, giving her perspective on growing up at that time. I think it's one of her better, more serious pieces. It seems it's still stuck behind a paywall, but if you get the chance to read it then I'd recommend it.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-riots-rats-and-sad-silent-queues-my-life-under-thatcher-rn67q5w0w5n[/quote]
But the Falklands was entirely avoidable - it didn't just pop up from nowhere without warning.
In fact, Nicolas Ridley was trying very hard to give the Falklands to Argentina. He met an official of the Argentinian government in secret in 1980, but his attempts to sell the deal he cooked up to the islanders failed.
The Thatcher government withdrew HMS Endurance.
They gave clear signals they didn't care about the Falklands.

@Stressedout65

Ps.I suppose it depends if you're a have or have not

I don't agree with this at all. You can "have" and still want the best for those who don't

derxa yes is is happening all over the country but South Yorkshire Police were at fault for not investigating properly & not supporting the victims. South Yorkshire Police Force are morally corrupt, had Orgreave been investigated properly & action taken then they wouldn't have got away with the falsifying evidence & changing statements at Hillsborough, Liverpool wouldn't have been accused of killing their own fans, victim's families wouldn't have had to wait 23 years for partial justice ( they will never get full justice as nobody has been found guilty) Don't forget that on the evening of the disaster day the higher officers were at the force club at Niagra Sheffield toasting a job well done & getting their stories straight.

@DynamoKev I don't disagree that the government's actions contributed to the situation. The Thatcher government thought no-one in the UK would care if the islands were given away, as most people had never even heard of the Falklands before 1982. However, the Falklands were a British Territory, the islanders are majority British Citizens, and so when "we" were invaded they had to respond. It was only 37 years after the end of WW2 and the public sentiment was that Britain doesn't tolerate invasion.

Sending the Task Force was actually a risky solution, but it paid off, and that's the bit I thought was the right thing to do. Although I would agree with the sentiment that it doesn't absolve the UK government of their actions that lead Argentina to think they would get away with it. Bit like agreeing that the UK vaccination programme has gone very well doesn't absolve the Westminster government for all the dithering and missteps that lead to such a high death rate in 2020.

Sorry if someone's mentioned this already, but this was an excellent series on her, her government and the times. Really worth watching. www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m0005brf/thatcher-a-very-british-revolution

@Nat6999

derxa yes is is happening all over the country but South Yorkshire Police were at fault for not investigating properly & not supporting the victims. South Yorkshire Police Force are morally corrupt, had Orgreave been investigated properly & action taken then they wouldn't have got away with the falsifying evidence & changing statements at Hillsborough, Liverpool wouldn't have been accused of killing their own fans, victim's families wouldn't have had to wait 23 years for partial justice ( they will never get full justice as nobody has been found guilty) Don't forget that on the evening of the disaster day the higher officers were at the force club at Niagra Sheffield toasting a job well done & getting their stories straight.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/britains-worst-ever-child-grooming-12165527.amp?__twitter_impression=true I could post hundreds of links like this. Trying to blame Margaret Thatcher for these abuses is disgusting imo. Try blaming the perpetrators and police forces all over the country who covered up the abuse.

[quote funnelfanjo]@DynamoKev I don't disagree that the government's actions contributed to the situation. The Thatcher government thought no-one in the UK would care if the islands were given away, as most people had never even heard of the Falklands before 1982. However, the Falklands were a British Territory, the islanders are majority British Citizens, and so when "we" were invaded they had to respond. It was only 37 years after the end of WW2 and the public sentiment was that Britain doesn't tolerate invasion.

Sending the Task Force was actually a risky solution, but it paid off, and that's the bit I thought was the right thing to do. Although I would agree with the sentiment that it doesn't absolve the UK government of their actions that lead Argentina to think they would get away with it. Bit like agreeing that the UK vaccination programme has gone very well doesn't absolve the Westminster government for all the dithering and missteps that lead to such a high death rate in 2020.[/quote]
I agree - perhaps its just my dislike of Thatcher and her legacy that I find it annoying she was able to cash in (in political terms) on remedying a situation entirely of her (government's) own making which cost a lot of lives on both sides.

@DynamoKev agreed, she called an early GE very quickly to cash in on the "victory" and got herself another 5 years on the back of it. Had it not been for that, a GE in 1984 may not have given her the same overwhelming majority as all her "medicine" imposed in her first term was not popular.

The poll tax was fairer than council tax

Was using Scotland as a testing ground for it fair, a year before anywhere?

No, it was not fair. She wasn't after Scottish votes so she didn't give a dam how it affected them. Typical Tory.