Maggie Thatcher, the iron lady

[Stressedout65]

Not an aibu know, but just watched Mrs Thatcher v The Miners on C5 from last night. I remember the strike vividly but felt far removed from it as we weren't part of a mining community.
For those who can remember her, good or bad for Britain? Admire her or hate her? I can't decide. Part of me thinks she was a complete & utter bitch, another part of me thinks she had more balls than all the wet blankets currently running the country now or since

And in 1997 more over 55s voted Labour than Conservative.

Interesting link, thank you.

The poll tax was one of the most divisive policies ever. It split the country very clearly into the haves and have nots. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to say if they hadn’t scrapped it we were heading towards continuing civil unrest from a large part of the population. Also the Government was losing more and more of the non payment court cases.

I do remember unemployment reaching over 3 million and what a depressing time it was for a lot of people especially in parts of the North

In 2010 more 18-34s voted Conservative than Labour.

what a depressing time it was for a lot of people especially in parts of the North

Even then, London was the capital of homelessness. You don't get much more misery than being homeless. The misery was not a regional thing. Just because some people in London were doing well, doesnt mean things were good for the rest. If anything being poor where other people think everyone's rich is worse especially when people start to get pushed out. If a millionaire moved next door you, that doesn't make you one too.

The poll tax became council tax, which is more unfair. Rates, yes, they were fair but we didn't return to them did we.

Council tax is very close to the rates system, both are based on property value. Which doesn’t seem particularly unfair to me.

Sorry I didn’t mean to show a regional bias! You are right. The homelessness in London was horrendous. Also a lot of people lost their homes due to negative equity/interest rates in the early - mid 90’s

Like Caffeine said, rates were only paid by the property owner.

Using her example of young housesharers. A group of renters on very low incomes living in 5 or 6 bedroom house have to pay the same large sum as a wealthy owner occupier couple with 3 children living in the same sized house next door. Or a single mum or disabled person renting a 1 or 2 bedroom flat has to pay the same expensive council tax as the affluent owner occupier couple with 3 children across the road. Poll tax was per person, which is fairer than council tax. But obviously rates were fairer still.

Love or hate her she was a proper leader. Took no shit and was confident and articulate. Not like the incoherent bumbling buffoon that looks like he has been dragged through a hedge backwards that we have now.

But we all know that the older you get, the more likely you are to vote Conservative. If most people who voted for Thatcher were over 60, they’d be 90 - 101 now - and mostly dead.

While older people have always tended to be more Tory than younger ones, this has greatly increased in recent times. Nowadays, age is a better predictor than social class of voting choice. In Thatcher's time and earlier, it was the other way round. There was a significant group of 'yuppies' (young upwardly-mobile professionals), who formed an important part of Thatcher's base.

Sorry didn't mean to have a go. It's a bug bear of mine. It's the media (and some politicians). They like to perpetuate the myth.

They go on about London 'booming' and ignore the deprivation that went alongside. The cardboard boxes on the Strand, the Westway, the dangerous grotty squats.

Yes lots of repossessions.

I'm wondering now about council tax. It's not that I want poll tax. I just see it as the lesser of the evils but maybe it's not. Undoubtedly the old rates system was the fairest.

It was Blair that changed public attitudes towards people on benefits - particularly the sick and disabled.

You could argue it was the public's attitude that caused Blair to reform though? Wasn't he primarily a populist (or attempting to be)? If you grew up anywhere near a housing estate in the 90s, you knew more than a few friend's dads with 'bad backs' who worked cash in hand. Not saying their existence justifies reducing benefits for disabled people, but there was probably public opinion that the system was unfair / broken.

Weren't all the miners who lost their jobs encouraged to claim disability benefits, because it kept the unemployment figures low? Five times as many working age men claiming disability than claiming unemployment and actively seeking work.

I'm not sure how you can continuously blame Blair for attempting to 'clean up' a mess caused by Thatcher's policies? What should he have done differently?

But what happened is the stink and fuss made over the proposed replacement - poll tax, led to something even worse (council tax).

I disagree that council tax is worse. If you have an expensive property, you pay more? What is so unfair about that?

Derxa I'm not blaming her for the crimes, I'm blaming her for supporting a police force that was morally corrupt, it was on her say so that the police did what they did at Orgreave & because she did nothing they did it again at Hillsborough & failed the victims of the Rotherham cases. It should have been someone independent of the police because West Midlands were as bad, tapping victim's families phones, having them followed, forcing junior officers to amend statements & if they refused, amended them anyway.

I can't find it. There was a good article explaining how Blair's war on the disabled changed public attitudes.

It's telling he changed the name of the Department of Social Security to the Disability erasing Department of Work and Pensions.

His solution to some people possibly faking or exaggerating it was to attack the genuinely disabled. How is taking money from the most vulnerable, leaving them destitute the right answer?

It's not as if the ex miners or other long term unemployed were faking it anyway. Aside from some having mining related occupational physical health issues, being out of work long-term does cause depression.

Instead of helping people - providing effective mental health support and decent training opportunities, Blair took away their money - and he took it away from every disabled and ill person.

disagree that council tax is worse. If you have an expensive property, you pay more? What is so unfair about that?

How is it fair that a group of very low income people struggling to pay the rent on a 5 bedroom houseshare pay the same as the wealthy owner occupier couple (with mortgage paid off) in the same sized 5 bedroom house next door?

Spot on @winched.

I'm not sure how you can continuously blame Blair for attempting to 'clean up' a mess caused by Thatcher's policies? What should he have done differently?

Pretty much everything!

He should have immediately ended Right to Buy (and not pushed for mass Buy to Let), not taken away money from the disabled (leaving them destitute), provided decent employment opportunities with proper apprenticeships for long term unemployed (but kept their benefits whilst training), not got us involved in foreign wars.

That's just a start.

How is it fair that a group of very low income people struggling to pay the rent on a 5 bedroom houseshare pay the same as the wealthy owner occupier couple (with mortgage paid off) in the same sized 5 bedroom house next door?

Because there are five of them paying the same as two next door. Basic maths. We don’t penalise people who have paid off their mortgages, do we? We don’t pay for our utilities according to income.

If you grew up anywhere near a housing estate in the 90s, you knew more than a few friend's dads with 'bad backs' who worked cash in hand.

And this is the attitude that Blair created. Lazy stereotypes.

He portrayed the sick and disabled (and struggling long term unemployed) as 'scroungers', as putting it on.

The majority of disability claimants were and are genuine.

The minority who weren't? Well poverty of opportunity should have been tackled with training and employment opportunities including decent apprenticeships.

Before Blair, as explained in the article I need to find, there was public understanding for and sympathy for the more unfortunate.

Nobody will bring back the poll tax. Thatcher tried it and it very nearly cost her the job. Wildly unpopular and almost impossible to administer in places like London where people in rented accommodation move frequently across boroughs.

Council tax is based on property value. You don't pay gas or electric based on property value. The only person who benefits from property value is the owner. Which is why the old rates system was fairer.

@StamfordHill the poll tax led to more poverty for poorer families. And was very difficult to administer. It was wildly unpopular because lots of families were affected.

In 1986 I went on a school trip to the House of Commons as I was doing politics A level.and I was lucky enough to see Mrs Thatcher in prime minister's questions. To this day, I don't think I've seen anyone with such charisma. She held the room in her hand and made the opposition leader (Foot? Kinnock?) squirm. She was extraordinary.and I say this as someone who is not remotely a fan of the Conservatives.

impossible to administer in places like London where people in rented accommodation move frequently across boroughs.

Ah well. Then let Londoners have access to stable affordable housing so that they can settle down in their local community - and not have to move all the time. Like it used to be.

Whether poll tax should come in or not (I'm not arguing for that btw) the severity of the housing and homelessness crisis in London is one of the tragic consequences of Right to Buy and Buy to Let. Communities shattered.

@StamfordHill is anyone from the conservatives thinking of reintroducing the poll tax?
If so they have short memories. And may mean we end up with a Labour government.

@Tealightsandd I lived in rented accommodation in London when the poll tax was in. Lots of young people moved every six months. It was hard to get tenancies for any length of time. And people moved across boroughs all the time.
And yes there should be better housing options everywhere. But London has been shit show for housing for a long time.