Maggie Thatcher, the iron lady

[Stressedout65]

Not an aibu know, but just watched Mrs Thatcher v The Miners on C5 from last night. I remember the strike vividly but felt far removed from it as we weren't part of a mining community.
For those who can remember her, good or bad for Britain? Admire her or hate her? I can't decide. Part of me thinks she was a complete & utter bitch, another part of me thinks she had more balls than all the wet blankets currently running the country now or since

Derxa I'm not blaming her, but Orgreave was her own doing because she instructed the police to crack down on the pickets, they had her backing to do whatever it took. The same after Hillsborough, she was part of the smear tactics used to blame Liverpool fans along with Irvine Patnick MP who acted as a go between from the police to Parliament, without that the myth of a "tanked up mob" & the lie that ticketless fans broke down a gate would have been proved untrue a lot quicker. Irvine patnick was drinking at the Niagra police club with senior police officers on the Saturday night after the disaster.

This is an old but good article (ignore the title, it's about more than the Iraq war).
Blair arguably caused more damage than Thatcher.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/14/blairism-britain-iraq-war-tony-blair

His effect on Britain and beyond was toxic

@shakingstevensfan

I can't stand Thatcher. I think though she would have handled the pandemic much better than it has been handled. She was a scientists and would have understood that you can not choose between deaths and the economy, that both are inextricably linked. Boris Johnson seemed to think you could ignore deaths and choose the economy. But high deaths leads to a buggered economy anyway. Worst of both worlds.

This.

And I don't think he's learnt the lesson. Unfortunately for all of us.

@pointythings

She did a lot of bad things, and it's basically down to her Right to Buy and then not replacing Council housing that we currently have our massive housing shortage. But at least she was sensible on EU membership.

Only to an extent...

Tony Blair had every opportunity to reverse the damage. It wasn't too late in 1997.

He chose instead to make things a million times worse. He enthusiastically continued with right to buy - but also, at the same time as increasing the population, pushed Buy to Let (with very irresponsible lending encouraged) and this started us on the road to FTB being outbid by asset rich investors, and then his successor, Brown, opened the door to ending the safety net of housing benefit.

By the time Labour got in, it was impossible to ignore or plead ignorance or shortsight over the human misery caused by right to buy. It was in front of Blair's face (Brown too.)

Unfortunately her resolution was market forces rather than any form of social welfare. For many communities that was brutal and left them with nothing. No work, no way of getting any work and little or no support.

I think you've confused her with Tony Blair. Whilst it's true people weren't given sufficient support to find suitable employment, she at least left them with money for essentials.

It was Tony Blair who started the dismantling of the safety net. He didn't provide appropriate employment opportunities either. But he went one step further.

The very worst thing was that he attacked the disabled.

It was Blair that changed public attitudes towards people on benefits - particularly the sick and disabled.

@LagunaBubbles

The poll tax was fairer than council tax

Was using Scotland as a testing ground for it fair, a year before anywhere ?

No. In fact that was the biggest mistake. That made it destined to fail. The Labour politicians in Scotland used her general unpopularity to ensure it was never going to be accepted. It was also stupid trialling it only in one place regardless of where.

People (UK wide) didn't want the old rates to go. Understandably. They were fairer. But what happened is the stink and fuss made over the proposed replacement - poll tax, led to something even worse (council tax).

@Lockdownbear

The Right to Buy isn't the issue on the housing market the issue is simply not enough new houses being built.

The rise of the private landlord artificially inflating the prices of houses, esp first time buyer houses.

In the late 60s and into the 70s hourly paid tradesmen couldn't get a mortgage. You could only get a mortgage if you were in a salaried job.
Right to Buy changed that.

Why do you think private landlords exist? Because there’s no social housing. Buying a house never occurred to many people before they were bribed with right to buy.

I despise her. I live near communities who've never recovered from what she did. Nothing was done to help them when all their work opportunities were completely removed. Unemployment, drugs, poor health and mental illness took over.

Right to Buy has indeed had a shattering impact. The cause of so much human misery.

Yet... 40 years on, Thatcher long gone, 13 years of a Labour government... And still, today in 2021, right to buy goes on in England (Scotland and Wales have banned it, and I'm unsure about NI).

That said it's not the only reason for the suffering and problems we have today. The massive push by property millionaire, Blair, for Buy to Let has also contributed hugely. We have an expanding population at the same time as reduced access to affordable housing. A human disaster.

@mybrainhertz

I despise her. I live near communities who've never recovered from what she did. Nothing was done to help them when all their work opportunities were completely removed. Unemployment, drugs, poor health and mental illness took over.

And then Blair and Brown came along to put the boot in. Did they help? Oh no. They took away or significantly cut their benefits - with especially harsh attacks reserved for the disabled, then started the process of cutting housing benefit. All the while merrily continuing right to buy and pushing buy to let - ensuring those at the bottom were not only penniless but homeless too.

"In the late 60s and into the 70s hourly paid tradesmen couldn't get a mortgage. You could only get a mortgage if you were in a salaried job.
Right to Buy changed that."

Utter bollocks. My grandparents lived in council flats. My parents bought their house in 1970. A factory worker and a cleaner.
All of their siblings were house owners too.
Out of my parents 4 dc - only one has a mortgage (not me!)

"In the late 60s and into the 70s hourly paid tradesmen couldn't get a mortgage. You could only get a mortgage if you were in a salaried job. Right to Buy changed that."

They didn't need to. They have council housing. More secure than a mortgage. An affordable home for life.

You bet right to buy changed things. It prioritised the wants of some over the needs of many others.

Nobody needs to own a home. It's nice but not necessary. Everybody needs to have a home.

Yet 40 years after Thatcher, including 13 years of Labour governments, a very severe housing and homelessness crisis - and right to buy in England still goes on.

To add some comments to the mess the country was in through the 70s. If you wanted a phone, there was only one place to go, you had to wait weeks to get connected, and virtually no choice on the type of phone. This didn't change until the privatisation of BT. The car industry was a mess, a combination of piss poor management and union power. When you finally got a car, we had an Allegro and a Marina and an old Triumph, all were crap. Gaps between the doors and body, breakdowns, badly designed and badly out together. The Japanese had an open goal when they started to attack our car market. I got a new car in about 1980, the first thing we did was start to cut holes in it to install a radio. Datsuns came with radios fitted, were well put together and were more reliable. Inflation, in the mid 70s I used to get a pay rise EVERY MONTH. It didn't buy anymore as price rises were incessant. I worked for Sainsbury's and every Monday morning we got pages of price increases to be implemented across the whole shop. Petrol shortages, toilet roll shortages, power cuts, the three day week, rubbish piling up in the streets, bodies not being buried. I don't disagree with most of the comments about her, but the country was in a shit state in 1979. Mind you, the.music was good.

@Lincslady53

To add some comments to the mess the country was in through the 70s. If you wanted a phone, there was only one place to go, you had to wait weeks to get connected, and virtually no choice on the type of phone. This didn't change until the privatisation of BT. The car industry was a mess, a combination of piss poor management and union power. When you finally got a car, we had an Allegro and a Marina and an old Triumph, all were crap. Gaps between the doors and body, breakdowns, badly designed and badly out together. The Japanese had an open goal when they started to attack our car market. I got a new car in about 1980, the first thing we did was start to cut holes in it to install a radio. Datsuns came with radios fitted, were well put together and were more reliable. Inflation, in the mid 70s I used to get a pay rise EVERY MONTH. It didn't buy anymore as price rises were incessant. I worked for Sainsbury's and every Monday morning we got pages of price increases to be implemented across the whole shop. Petrol shortages, toilet roll shortages, power cuts, the three day week, rubbish piling up in the streets, bodies not being buried. I don't disagree with most of the comments about her, but the country was in a shit state in 1979. Mind you, the.music was good.

Indeed. Unemployment was 1.5 Million and a Tory election poster depicted a dole queue and the slogan "Labour isn't working". It only took about two years for Thatcher to more than double unemployment and then to start fiddling the figures so they didn't look so bad and couldn't be compared to previous ones. If Thatcher was the answer, it was a shit question.

One thing's for certain. A lot of people publicly hated her... but their choice in the polling booth said otherwise. The shy Tories of the 80s (and early 90s). I wonder how many are on here.

I was a young adult when the poll tax was introduced. If you were well-off I.e. a home-owner you would pay about the same or less than rates so great for most Tory voters of the time..

However if you rented (I was in shared, rented houses until I was 27) rates had previously been included in the rent. But once the poll tax was introduced, renters then had to find hundreds of pounds more a year out of already stretched incomes. Of course rent did not reduce as the landlord no longer paid rates. It stayed the same. People just simply did not have the money to pay it and there was mass avoidance, court cases and riots. I was a graduate trainee in a Bank and I did not have the money “spare” to pay what was a significant additional, new monthly cost. Most of my income was taken up by rent and travel to work costs. A lot of young people moved around a lot to avoid it.

Caffeine yes, rates were fairer. But instead of scrapping the idea, poll tax was replaced by something even worse. Council tax.

@Tealightsandd

One thing's for certain. A lot of people publicly hated her... but their choice in the polling booth said otherwise. The shy Tories of the 80s (and early 90s). I wonder how many are on here.

Except because of our shit voting system she never got more than 43% of the vote - so even at her height more people voted for something else but got Thatcher.

I have never found a Tory I could vote for.

@Tealightsandd

One thing's for certain. A lot of people publicly hated her... but their choice in the polling booth said otherwise. The shy Tories of the 80s (and early 90s). I wonder how many are on here.

Most of them are dead.

Most of them are dead.

Really? Even in a pandemic, most people nowadays live longer than their 50s.

Anyone over 50 would have been eligible to vote during her time in government.

Mid 50s to be more accurate. Early 50s just missed out but could have voted for John Major.

@Tealightsandd

Most of them are dead.

Really? Even in a pandemic, most people nowadays live longer than their 50s.

Anyone over 50 would have been eligible to vote during her time in government.

But we all know that the older you get, the more likely you are to vote Conservative. If most people who voted for Thatcher were over 60, they’d be 90 - 101 now - and mostly dead.

She won large majorities (John Major too).

That wasn't done on older voters alone - and actually lots of the older generation were more dyed in the wool old fashioned socialists than the younger people.

Not that every young person was shy about it. The 'yuppies' were young, and many right to buyers were young too - and openly supportive of her.

@Tealightsandd

She won large majorities (John Major too).

That wasn't done on older voters alone - and actually lots of the older generation were more dyed in the wool old fashioned socialists than the younger people.

Not that every young person was shy about it. The 'yuppies' were young, and many right to buyers were young too - and openly supportive of her.

The figures support the older voter theory.

www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/how-britain-voted-october-1974

Looking at 1983 and 1987 - the prime Thatcher years, she had a majority even in the 18-34 group.

41% of 18-34s voted Conservative in 1983 to Labour's 31%. Not too much difference from the over 55s (47% Tory, 27% Labour).

Certainly she had a lot more votes from 18-34s than the other parties.

Clearly she had quite a lot of young support (whether openly or not).