To think parking charges kill city centres?

[shakingstevensfan]

We had a nice day out today and on the way home decided to stop in the city centre and get a cheap meal. We parked the car and went to pay, but the price of parking was £2.40 an hour - this applied up till 10 pm. This meant the minimum we would spend on parking was £4.80, but could easily be £7.20.
If I had been going for an expensive meal that would be fine. But the city centre is full of fairly cheap chain restaurants that are nothing special. So we got back in the car and drove instead to a retail park where we went to the exact same place we had planned to go, but with free parking.
It just amazes me that councils know city centres are dying but they still put people off actually using them.
We have not been in the city centre for a year and won't go back again unless it is for something special.

[quote shakingstevensfan]@DeathByWalkies good for you. You are obviously a committed cyclist. I don't even have a bike and my DP can not manage a bike anymore. But more importantly, I see mainly younger fit white men cycling in and out of town. It appeals to a certain demographic. There have been lots of initiatives to promote cycling in my city as transport. Most people do not want to.
Pople seem to forget that the choice is not how do we travel to the city centre, but do we go there or do we go somewhere else. And increasingly people are choosing to go elsewhere. Like others have said, the retail parks where I live are always really busy.
We have a population that is becoming increasingly older. And yet local leaders like ours just seems to see city centres as for the young. They will die on their feet with that approach.[/quote]
I agree that for many people cycling is not a realistic option.

I've got arthritis in my spine as well as in my knees and hips and my discs are knackered. I haven't been able to turn my head enough to do the the "lifesaver" look over my shoulder since I was about 40.

I reckon cycling would reduce my life expectancy to about 48 hours.

Car drivers already benefit from roads being provided for use free of charge.

Free of charge? The Treasury makes more money from drivers, than it spends on roads - VAT on new cars and car repairs, road tax, duty on fuel.....Go somewhere like the US or Dubai and see how cheap fuel is there, compared to here!

@babdoc I'm just outside the bypass, which feels equivalent to being in a different country in terms of Lothian bus provision, and no other providers here either... Yes, have complained, requested, emailed local councillors and MSP... We have a bus every 20min, in theory - doesn't always show up, so you have to factor that in if you're on the clock, whether for work or meeting someone. Takes an hour, if traffic isn't bad. Also not cheap, because despite being part of Edinburgh and paying the same council tax (relevant as the council part-owns the bus company), it's a Lothian Country service which is more expensive and has fewer ticket options.

@shakingstevensfan Yes, it's the shopping centre and outlet at Livingston (about 18 miles from Edinburgh) you're thinking of - 50p an hour if you use the official car parks, free but limited time if you park elsewhere. And yes, I know many locals go there (and the other peripheral shopping centres like Fort Kinnaird/Straiton) much more often than the city centre because it's cheaper to park! It does take away one big thing for me - it's not as nice to wander around a shopping centre as a pretty city centre with green spaces, so I don't go there as a day out - just to grab what I need, and therefore probably spend less.

@IntermittentParps what would make me go into the city centre by public transport is a lot of independent quirky shops and restaurants. Clothing I could not get anywhere else, unusual furniture and gifts, new and different restaurants. I guess a wider aimed version of Camden Market was when it first appeared. I remember buying clothes and bedding that I had never seen anywhere else. But it would have to include goods aimed at the older market, not just the young. But for that to happen it needs cheap rents.
Even now I still sometimes come across an old department store in a market town which as well as the usual stock, has more unusual things in it. But in most high streets you could be anywhere in the country. I am going to pick up an order of clothes from an M and S food hall today. At one time I would have travelled into the city centre and tried them on. Now I just order them online.
It is why Primark are one of the few shops still thriving on the high street. They have no online offer but offer something unique to a certain demographic.
I think about 10 years ago was the peak of British restaurant culture. There seemed to be more independents around then offering something unique. Now there are too many chains and even independents often offer similar menus. It is boring.

I agree that for many people cycling is not a realistic option.

I've got arthritis in my spine as well as in my knees and hips and my discs are knackered. I haven't been able to turn my head enough to do the the "lifesaver" look over my shoulder since I was about 40.

I reckon cycling would reduce my life expectancy to about 48 hours. grin

There is such a thing as cycling wingmirrors, which should deal with the head turning issue amazon.co.uk/kengb-Mirrors-Rotatable-Handlebar-Mountain/dp/B088B6JJD4/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_1285150262?_encoding=UTF8&adgrpid=101484058073&hvadid=430875813083&hvadid=430875813083&hvdev=c&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045354&hvlocphy=9045354&hvnetw=g&hvnetw=g&hvpone=&hvpone=&hvpos=&hvpos=&hvptwo=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvqmt=&hvrand=14881062700585281848&hvrand=14881062700585281848&hvtargid=pla-911027018803&hvtargid=pla-911027018803&ie=UTF8&linkCode=df0&psc=1&ref=&tag=&tag=googshopuk-21]]

As mentioned upthread, I have a disability (and a spine that's buggered as a result; all my joints are affected too) and I find cycling easier than walking, especially if I have any weight to carry.

Your experience may vary, but the good thing with cycling is that it puts very few shocks through the joints (unlike, for instance, running, which always seems to knacker people's knees prematurely) and is so quite a low impact form of exercise for people with dodgy joints.

Memorably I once cycled to A&E with what turned out to be a broken foot (it was fairly flat, and my good leg did all the work while the broken one just sat on the pedal). I then cycled home again, and into work the next day, because it was a lot easier to cycle than to crutch to and from the bus stop. Driving would have been impossible, as it was my right foot. Though I did find after a couple of weeks that my left thigh was noticeably more muscular than the right I only include this anecdote as it's an example of how cycling can sometimes be the most accessible form of transport available.

shakingstevensfan, yes, we're not disagreeing with each other I would like to see more towns and cities with a range of independent shops and restaurants offering unusual and varied things. And absolutely, rents need to be cheaper, as I said upthread.

I would say that as well as all this, I think there's a place for shops and restaurants where you could be anywhere in the country; sometimes I just want a Pret because I fancy one of their sandwiches specifically, or a Superdrug because you know what you're getting.
I think it comes down to rents and footfall; enough of the latter helps even smaller businesses afford the former. And interest and variety attracts the latter even if it means using public transport. Which needs to be cheap and easy/pleasant to use. And so on.

Parking isn't cheap, but neither is public transport. If I want to go into town it'll cost me more on a train than the fiver parking would have cost the OP. And that's just for one person. We have to make public transport, cheap and convenient and pleasant.

@theemmadilemma

I just came to laugh. It's the same as moaning about the congestion charge. The whole point is to discourage driving to the city centres.

Shame the infrastructure doesn't support that, but eh.

Using road pricing to reduce congestion disproportionately disadvantages people on low incomes imo. That's why efficient, affordable public transport is a must imo. Especially in rural and semi-rural areas.

I used to work one day pw in a large town 20 miles away. The journey took about 40-45 minutes each way by car and cost around £4.50 in fuel.

I tried getting the train once. It ended up taking over 2 hours to get there and 90 mins to get back, because the bus service to the station was so poor, and cost £18.

I wouldn't be able to do it at all now, as our first bus isn't till after 9am, so there's no way I'd get there for a 9.30 meeting.

@StrawberrySquash

Parking isn't cheap, but neither is public transport. If I want to go into town it'll cost me more on a train than the fiver parking would have cost the OP. And that's just for one person. We have to make public transport, cheap and convenient and pleasant.

This. I can get three or four hours parking in a city centre multi storey for the price of a return bus ticket. So I have no real incentive to forego the convenience of my car.

Parking charges can be expensive in some places yet online shopping has caused a lot more damage.

I only shop in retail parks to avoid charges. I'm sure I'm not the only person that does this.

It would also be grossly unfair to do away with parking charges while people without cars still have to pay for public transport.

@CounsellorTroi car owners pay for their cars and petrol as well.

Perhaps we should reframe parking charges - as "short term rental of a space in which to leave your large privately owned item". Like a specialist version of self storage.

I can't think of any other circumstances under which you'd expect to be able to leave a 4m x 2m item anywhere and not have to pay for the privilege.

@DeathByWalkies I am talking about on-street car parking. It is normal in many places to park on the street for zero cost. Just as it is normal to secure a bike to a bike park.
Anyway call it what you want, I am not paying the current rate for what I can get anywhere else for free or far less money.

Bristol is notoriously "anti car". Cycling and public transport have priority and I see most of the hugely expensive Metro buses sailing past completely empty.

The latest "innovation" is official electric scooters for hire. These are lethal for pedestrians and motorists alike.

There was one the other day being ridden by someone with their hoodie up, dark sunglasses and wearing ear phones. They were weaving in and out of the traffic but with both hearing and vision compromised it's really only a matter of time before they have an accident.

Many are being ridden on the pavements and they go fast and come up silently behind you. Absolutely stupid idea. Perfect for handbag snatchers too.....

The OP did not ask AIBU for wanting free parking?

They asked if high parking costs were part of the reason why city centres are dying when there is a free alternative at out of town retail parks.

I'd say the overwhelming answer is yes.

A return ticket to my local town that is less than 3 miles away is just under £6. The cost of car parking is £6 for 4 hours or £7.50 for the full day in a nap car park. I would be prepared to pay the high cost of parking if the place didn’t stink of piss, have attendants so the local druggies didn’t use it as their local hangout, working lighting so we at least had the illusion of safety and the lift worked at least 95% of the time.
As it doesn’t I don’t go into town unless I have no alternative and then I go on a Sunday when street parking restrictions are waved in a few town centre roads.

£4.80 is cheap!! I'd not even blink at that OP! Not sure what you were expecting to pay in all honesty...if your entire family were getting on public transport into the city centre (and back) it would have been much more expensive than £4.80!!

Work that out per person...how many people were there? I'm assuming as you said 'your family' there were more than one of you? So not much then per person, per hour? For me, as a single person, I'd still not balk at that for a couple of hours parking...in my town centre car park, the minimum hourly rate is £3.70 so you're onto a winner 🤣

@DotsandCo public transport would be £5 for a family bus ticket at the weekend.

@CounsellorTroi

It would also be grossly unfair to do away with parking charges while people without cars still have to pay for public transport.

Yes, because my car runs on fresh air and buttercups

Ultimately it does not matter whether council leaders and councillors think car parking charges should be high and everyone should go in by bike or public transport. What matters is whether people will actually travel in. And I suspect fewer people will.

I can't think of any other circumstances under which you'd expect to be able to leave a 4m x 2m item anywhere and not have to pay for the privilege.

^^ well a retail park...

@inmyslippers

I can't think of any other circumstances under which you'd expect to be able to leave a 4m x 2m item anywhere and not have to pay for the privilege.

^^ well a retail park...

Any circumstances other than parking; any item other than a car. I'm fairly sure you realised that's what I was saying.

Apart from hiked up charges in major cities (North West) more local towns (to me) charge about 20-50p per hour.

YABU.