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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think parking charges kill city centres?

205 replies

shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 00:57

We had a nice day out today and on the way home decided to stop in the city centre and get a cheap meal. We parked the car and went to pay, but the price of parking was £2.40 an hour - this applied up till 10 pm. This meant the minimum we would spend on parking was £4.80, but could easily be £7.20.
If I had been going for an expensive meal that would be fine. But the city centre is full of fairly cheap chain restaurants that are nothing special. So we got back in the car and drove instead to a retail park where we went to the exact same place we had planned to go, but with free parking.
It just amazes me that councils know city centres are dying but they still put people off actually using them.
We have not been in the city centre for a year and won't go back again unless it is for something special.

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Comefromaway · 01/06/2021 11:55

According to google maps it would take an hour to cycle to my city centre from my house. And then where would I leave the blinking thing especially one of those contraptions linked.

In reality with the hills etc by me it would more likely take twice that amount of time. For a 20 minute car journey.

shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 11:55

I came across this website which tracks footfall and spend in British cities compared to pre-pandemic levels. Some of the cities being praised here such as Cardiff, Edinburgh and Manchester are doing very badly.

www.centreforcities.org/data/high-streets-recovery-tracker/

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Comefromaway · 01/06/2021 11:57

Wow, my city is top 10. That surprises me. However with Debenhams gone and M & S to follow I doubt that will last.

senua · 01/06/2021 12:03

If it's an actual Oyster card you're on about (i.e. you're in London) then they do also accept contactless credit / debit cards.
Do they? That's kind of my point. The last time I used a London Oyster it was very inconvenient. It might have changed since then but I don't know because it was off-putting so I haven't wanted to go again. They are not doing enough to encourage car-users; we need more carrot and less stick.
It doesn't seem to occur to them that people have the choice to vote with their tyres and go elsewhere.

Comefromaway · 01/06/2021 12:05

I actually hate driving and would always choose to use good, reliable public transport (not buses as they make dh travel sick) over and above the car any day.

But that would mean every city having a metro link or local rail network with lots of local stops and inexpensive fayres.

TravellingJack · 01/06/2021 12:09

@Babdoc

My DDs live in Edinburgh. Car parking in the centre is eye wateringly expensive if you can even find a space. And the traffic congestion is awful long before you reach the centre. However, the council have provided excellent public transport - buses running every ten minutes, in dedicated bus lanes, anywhere in the city, for the same reasonable fixed fare. Or in my case for free, as I have a bus pass. I park at DD1’s house in the suburbs at the outer end of the bus route, and bus in to visit DD2 in the centre. The centre was thriving pre Covid, as a major tourist destination, not just for shopping. Discouraging cars doesn’t seem to have harmed it at all. There is also a tram and a rail line to the centre.
I also live 'in' Edinburgh - within the council limits, anyway, so paying the same council tax rates as city centre properties... I am less than 10 miles from Princes St and we do not have 'excellent' public transport in my area at all! Buses (which are part-owned by the council) are unreliable and expensive for one person, let alone a family, trains are the same... it's too far to cycle (and I'm not a confident cyclist anyway), rains more often than not, roads are in atrocious condition, and how do you get your loot home from the shops on a bike with a tired 6yo...

Park and ride isn't an option either as by the time I drive there, before I even set foot on the slow tram which takes another half an hour on top of the drive, I might as well have driven straight into the city centre... where I can pay over £5/hr for parking, with a 4hr limit in many places, so you can't even do a day out without moving your car - not that I would, as it could cost £50 to park for the day! It is actually cheaper to get a parking ticket than pay for a day's parking... So now I rarely visit the city centre, especially as they recently removed free parking on Sundays. It's sad, because it is a beautiful place, but I simply can't afford to go there often, and it's less than 10 miles away.

shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 12:14

It all seems very worthy. Use public transport because it is better for the environment. Cycle because it is better for your health. Walk because it is carbon neutral.
Although all that is true, I am not going to do it. I get zero personal benefits from getting the bus into the city centre rather than driving to a retail park or doing online shopping.
We are not early adopters so started doing online shopping later than many people. I avoided retail parks for ages because they are ugly. So I do think if we are doing this now, the city centre is fucked. While our Council Leader goes on about the value of cycling and creating destinations where people want to spend the day. The latter seems to be based on cinemas, crazy golf and restaurants. It will attract some young people but will make little difference in attracting older people who make up the bulk of the population.

I agree with the person that said cultural life in cities outside the capitals could be much better. Our city is dire for this. There is a paid tourist attraction museum, but not much else. We have been and enjoyed it, but it is not somewhere where you would go again and again. Some small cities are better at this and it does attract people.

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senua · 01/06/2021 12:17

So now I rarely visit the city centre, especially as they recently removed free parking on Sundays. It's sad, because it is a beautiful place, but I simply can't afford to go there often, and it's less than 10 miles away.
Very similar to my situation. I might have gone to the museum or art gallery on a Sunday but not any more. What's the point in making the museum free but then charging for parking?

RockingMyFiftiesNot · 01/06/2021 12:18

[quote shakingstevensfan]@RockingMyFiftiesNot I would not pay £7 for an average glass of wine!
Maybe part of the issue is class? Our council leader and others working with him are well off and so think the car parking charge is not a lot? But we are fairly ordinary, not well-off and for £7 I would expect two pints of beer that would last me all night and is more than I usually drink.
And if you are going to high end restaurants £7 is not a lot.[/quote]
It just picked out one example of a mid- range restaurant All Bar One - nice but not exactly fine dining. I'm sure Pizza Express and other places are at least £6 for a large glass of wine. I'll also generally drink beer in those places but I was just making the point about relative costs.

To think parking charges kill city centres?
IntermittentParps · 01/06/2021 12:20

It all seems very worthy. Use public transport because it is better for the environment. Cycle because it is better for your health. Walk because it is carbon neutral.
Although all that is true, I am not going to do it. I get zero personal benefits from getting the bus into the city centre rather than driving to a retail park or doing online shopping.

This is one of the cruxes of this whole issue; people's personal attitudes. Personal benefit vs 'worthiness' (is that an insult? what's wrong with being concerned for the environment/your health?)

DeathByWalkies · 01/06/2021 12:21

According to google maps it would take an hour to cycle to my city centre from my house. And then where would I leave the blinking thing especially one of those contraptions linked.

In reality with the hills etc by me it would more likely take twice that amount of time. For a 20 minute car journey.

Google maps takes into account hills when estimating times - I just tested using the steepest hill I could think of off the top of my head (Park St in Bristol) and it estimates 8 minutes to go up it, and 2 minutes to go down it, and it suggests less hilly but longer alternative routes on the uphill route.

You could leave the bike attached to a bike stand using a D Lock - there are many in every city centre, and they are always closer to the shops than the parking spaces. If you were looking at a side by side tandem, you'd need a space at the end of the racks, but you'd be entirely within your rights to park there.

There are electric bikes (and kits that can be retrofitted onto bikes) which also help to deal with the hill aspect.

If it's an actual Oyster card you're on about (i.e. you're in London) then they do also accept contactless credit / debit cards.
Do they? That's kind of my point. The last time I used a London Oyster it was very inconvenient. It might have changed since then but I don't know because it was off-putting so I haven't wanted to go again. They are not doing enough to encourage car-users; we need more carrot and less stick.
It doesn't seem to occur to them that people have the choice to vote with their tyres and go elsewhere.

Yes - I've just checked and it has been in place since 2014. Basically you can use your contactless card in the exact same way as an Oyster (inc. daily / weekly capping) but there's no need to top up. You can even use your mobile phone if you have Apple / Android Pay set up. They still offer Oyster cards though, as they're important for tourists, people without bank accounts and kids.

I came across this website which tracks footfall and spend in British cities compared to pre-pandemic levels. Some of the cities being praised here such as Cardiff, Edinburgh and Manchester are doing very badly. www.centreforcities.org/data/high-streets-recovery-tracker/

That's a really interesting link - thank you. It seems there's a correlation between the proportion of workers who have returned to working in the city centre and the overall recovery. I suppose if you're already in town for work you're much more likely to get a lunchtime sandwich and then pop into a shop on your way home from work.

There's a very clear correlation between size of city and recovery as well; I wonder if it's because neighbourhood high streets are gaining in big cities, as it's nearer where people are living and WFH, whereas in small towns there's often the town centre and nothing else.

I can also see a correlation between likelihood of tourism and recovery; no one goes to Basildon or Blackburn as a tourist, so they've lost nothing on that front. The likes of Edinburgh and Oxford are suffering and that will be partially due to the loss of both UK and international tourists.

Ellpellwood · 01/06/2021 12:24

This is the thing. Unless you have children who like repeatedly going to science museums or a model village or similar, local people don't repeatedly go to their galleries and museums. We go to the same National Trusts, little farms and farm shop cafés because we have a toddler but wouldn't do them over and over as a childless couple.

If you haven't got tourism there's no point opening something like a gallery. I've lived near Bath for 13 years and done the Roman Baths once, as have most Somerset and Wiltshire residents.

One of the best things here for attracting people is monthly markets like the Frome Independent but you need a large number of stalls to make it worth driving to.

SnackSizeRaisin · 01/06/2021 12:27

I don't know why you expect parking to be free. It costs money to provide car parks. Those who want to use them should pay for them. Car drivers already benefit from roads being provided for use free of charge. A few pounds for parking is fair enough. It's up to you to weigh up whether the fee is worthwhile for what you want to do - it may mean going elsewhere, not going at all or going by public transport. The city centre has not lost out because there are fewer cars. In fact cars with the accompanying noise, pollution and the space they take up make city centres more dangerous and less attractive. You needn't think you are doing anyone a favour by driving your vehicle into a city and refusing to pay towards the privilege.

shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 12:28

@RockingMyFiftiesNot I have only ever been to Bar One with deals. I used to go there and get tapas and a bottle of wine to share. I think it was £15. Just googled it and now £20 for four tapas and a bottle of wine. The tapas used to be pretty big.
I do take your point. But I would not pay £7 for an average glass of wine in my city. I either get deals and in chain restaurants, there are a lot of them. Or I go somewhere cheaper. So last night I paid £2.80 for a nice pint of beer.

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shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 12:29

@SnackSizeRaisin I have said I do not expect on-street parking to be free. This is not a car park. But I do expect to pay less.

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IntermittentParps · 01/06/2021 12:30

If you haven't got tourism there's no point opening something like a gallery.
Would opening a gallery not possibly create some tourism?

Babdoc · 01/06/2021 12:31

shakinstevensfan, of course Edinburgh is doing badly since the pandemic! It is missing about 12,000 students from its four universities and probably nearly a million tourists - that is a lot of missing footfall/spend for its shops, pubs and restaurants!
TravellingJack, I’m sorry to hear that Lothian Buses do not provide a good service to your bit of outer Edinburgh. They are excellent from Corstorphine, (I use the 31 regularly), and I’ve never had a problem bussing back from other areas to the centre, when too tired after a long walk.
Have you complained to Lothian Council’s transport division? Or petitioned for better services?

Ellpellwood · 01/06/2021 12:33

@IntermittentParps

If you haven't got tourism there's no point opening something like a gallery. Would opening a gallery not possibly create some tourism?
Not on its own in a medium-sized town full of Wetherspoons, pound shops and charity shops, as so many are. Maybe if it's near somewhere popular a short distance away.
shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 12:35

@Babdoc but that is the point. Most cities do not have a massive amount of tourists and students. So what works for Edinburgh will not work for other cities. I thought though for locals there was a big retail village outside Edinburgh that was very popular. Is it Macarthur Glen or have I got the name wrong? I wonder how many locals go there instead of Edinburgh city centre?

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RockingMyFiftiesNot · 01/06/2021 12:37

[quote shakingstevensfan]@RockingMyFiftiesNot I have only ever been to Bar One with deals. I used to go there and get tapas and a bottle of wine to share. I think it was £15. Just googled it and now £20 for four tapas and a bottle of wine. The tapas used to be pretty big.
I do take your point. But I would not pay £7 for an average glass of wine in my city. I either get deals and in chain restaurants, there are a lot of them. Or I go somewhere cheaper. So last night I paid £2.80 for a nice pint of beer.[/quote]
Ah yes, the 'Tapas Tuesday' deal is brilliant, used it many times when away with work and with a crowd. 4 (decent quality) tapas and a whole bottle of wine is a brilliant deal. The only time I would pay £7-8 for a glass of wine would be if DH and I were having decent meals where we were having very different things eg steak and fish. But if we were having eg a burger I'd stick with beer or maybe cider. But the restaurants are full of people drinking glasses of wine, hence my point.

IntermittentParps · 01/06/2021 12:40

Ellpellwood, I agree about one thing on its own. But I would like to see/hope we'd see, with better transport options into smaller cities and towns, the phenomenon where if one thing opens up lots of other things open up too, because they can all support each other –so people will come to town to 'do the galleries' or 'do the shops' and go to a cafe or two as well, or similar.

shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 12:42

@RockingMyFiftiesNot it always surprises me what some people will pay for a not great offering. Tapas Tuesdays was a great deal though. Bar One is fine, but I would always prefer a quirky little pub.

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shakingstevensfan · 01/06/2021 12:44

@IntermittentParps my whole point is that not many people now go into town to "do the shops". Those days have gone for the majority of people. Most people now buy online or at supermarkets. I can get top quality clothing online that I can't get in any shop in the city centre.

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Whyhello · 01/06/2021 12:49

Public transport is absolutely crap outside of London and maybe Manchester at a push. Lots of experience of PT in many large cities across England. Where I currently live is rural so in order to get to the closest city we’d have to take about 4 different buses or 2 buses and 2 trains. Why would anyone willingly do that with small children when they have a car? Plus the buses are atrocious- every 1 hour and sometimes don’t bother showing at all.

Parking charges and shit PT has definitely driven people out of city centres. You can’t really compete with it being delivered directly to your door anyway, let’s face it.

IntermittentParps · 01/06/2021 12:49

shakingstevensfan, I'm just trying to look at this thread from another way round. There's a lot of 'there are no shops/transport/etc, therefore I'm not going into town'. I'm interested in the question 'Why aren't there and what might we do about that that would benefit us all?'