To think parking charges kill city centres?

[shakingstevensfan]

We had a nice day out today and on the way home decided to stop in the city centre and get a cheap meal. We parked the car and went to pay, but the price of parking was £2.40 an hour - this applied up till 10 pm. This meant the minimum we would spend on parking was £4.80, but could easily be £7.20.
If I had been going for an expensive meal that would be fine. But the city centre is full of fairly cheap chain restaurants that are nothing special. So we got back in the car and drove instead to a retail park where we went to the exact same place we had planned to go, but with free parking.
It just amazes me that councils know city centres are dying but they still put people off actually using them.
We have not been in the city centre for a year and won't go back again unless it is for something special.

I just came to laugh. It's the same as moaning about the congestion charge. The whole point is to discourage driving to the city centres.

Shame the infrastructure doesn't support that, but eh.

@Comefromaway yes DP has a mobility issue which means he can not make one leg turn in the movement required to pedal. I mean he could spend a fortune getting an electric bike. Or we could just drive to a retail park or suburb.

@serpenta But those are all very big cities with a lot to offer. I have been to Madrid as a tourist and enjoyed it. No one flies to the city I live in to be a tourist. And it is impossible for every city to have world-class museums, galleries, attractions and architecture.
I think the cities with very unique offerings like Edinburgh and Bath will be fine. But I suspect over the next 10-years more city centres will fail and suburbs and retail parks will become King.
You sound a bit like our council leader. Comparing our very ordinary city-centre with its chain shops, a cinema and theatre to famous international cities. It is delusional. There are a few things in our city centre you can not get anywhere else in the city such as theatre, gigs and nightclubs. But is that really enough?

But more importantly, I see mainly younger fit white men cycling in and out of town. It appeals to a certain demographic. There have been lots of initiatives to promote cycling in my city as transport. Most people do not want to
In places like Copenhagen and Amsterdam you see a bit of a broader demographic cycling, and more people using bikes to transport stuff, like DeathByWalkies talks about.
I think it's probably a combination of better provision by local councils and government, and different public attitudes towards convenience versus more green ways of using resources. It's a bit of a chicken and egg thing in that I'm not sure which way round that is; but I do think both governmental and public attitudes in the UK need to change.

You sound a bit like our council leader.

Thank you. I'm sure he is a truly great and inspirational man.

The truth is that high streets and city centres are going to have to change anyway, regardless of whether you can park your car there for free whilst you have your pizza dinner. Chains are closing down at a rapid rate and city centres need to become something other than shopping hubs. Make cities work and be attractive for the people who live in them and around them, rather than just saying 'but we're not Edinburgh'.

it is impossible for every city to have world-class museums, galleries, attractions and architecture.

I think this is a really interesting point (although slightly off-topic perhaps!).
In the UK in particular I feel that 'culture' in the sense you mean here is heavily (unfairly) weighted towards London. Don't get me wrong, I love London and it is wonderful the amount and range of attractions here; but there are or could be fantastic cultural attractions in other towns and cities too.
The UK is changing slowly, with things like the V&A in Dundee and the Margate Turner Contemporary. There's also obviously been great cultural attractions in other towns and cities for ages (the Baltic in Gateshead, many excellent galleries and theatres in Glasgow, the Lowry in Salford etc). But it's still, you're right, pretty thin on the ground.
I don't see why it is, or should be, '*impossible for every city to have world-class museums, galleries, attractions and architecture.' Or, if not world-class, 'well worth visiting'.
More attractions like this would possibly reinvigorate people's interest in visiting, which could obviously then boost and support shops, restaurants etc.

Dundee is getting an Eden Project too. They're doing well for themselves in that regard!

In my old city we used to drive into town on a Sunday night and go for a meal quite often. Was really quick driving in on a Sunday night, and parking was free after 6 on a Sunday.

Then they introduced charges 24h for parking. So it was like £8 if you wanted to park and go for a meal.

We stopped visiting those restaurants.

As a lone woman at night, I do not want to walk though large areas of pedestrianised city centre. They are always badly lit and whilst I'll happily walk miles alone through the countryside, I find them very threatening. Bristol for example has some very aggressive beggars in the centre at night.

I want to be able to park as close to my destination as possible and I'm prepared to pay for it.

LadyPoison, absolutely. If they were better lit, though, and not so 'deserted' – if there were lots of people out eating, drinking, walking, and a police presence perhaps –cities would feel much more appealing at night.

[quote shakingstevensfan]@DeathByWalkies good for you. You are obviously a committed cyclist. I don't even have a bike and my DP can not manage a bike anymore. But more importantly, I see mainly younger fit white men cycling in and out of town. It appeals to a certain demographic. There have been lots of initiatives to promote cycling in my city as transport. Most people do not want to.
Pople seem to forget that the choice is not how do we travel to the city centre, but do we go there or do we go somewhere else. And increasingly people are choosing to go elsewhere. Like others have said, the retail parks where I live are always really busy.
We have a population that is becoming increasingly older. And yet local leaders like ours just seems to see city centres as for the young. They will die on their feet with that approach.[/quote]
FWIW I also own a vehicle (necessity due to my self employment, unfortunately) and drive. I'm also disabled, and find cycling easier than walking - especially when there's heavier weights involved as I have serious spine issues. I can't carry significant weights over any distance any more (e.g. walking home with 2-3 bags of food shopping), but putting them in my panniers means I simply don't notice the weight.

Every person who can be encouraged to cycle instead of drive is a reduction in congestion, and makes parking easier for those who really do need to drive. It won't be possible for every person on every trip, but it's often possible for a wider proportion of the population than is first assumed, and I'm all in favour of free parking for blue badge holders.

I know a couple who are in their late 80s and still cycling - they've been cycling all their lives and are in fantastic physical form for their age as a result. You would think they were in their early 70s if they didn't tell you.

Yes, cycling for us is not an option either. Dh isn't even fit to drive a car let alone a cycle given his dizziness and balance issues. And then there is my asthma.

There's a huge variety of adaptive bikes for people with disabilities - this is a local adaptive cycling centres bikes, including several tricycle options for people with balance / dizziness issues. www.cardiffpedalpower.org/our-bikes

Asthma doesn't require a sedentary life. Asthma UK recommends that you do take exercise www.asthma.org.uk/advice/living-with-asthma/exercise-and-activities/ Cycling need not be a strenuous activity - I'm not especially fit, I'm disabled, I take about 5 minutes per mile on average (including stopping at lights etc.) and rarely get out of breath. That's one of the fantastic things about cycling - it's low impact on the joints and you can go at exactly the speed you want to.

I feel very safe walking through the centre of London at night (although I was struck by how much more unsafe it felt last autumn when I was there without the theatre crowd). No way would I walk through my local city centre at night alone.

I find your attitude incredibly hurtful and patronising.

I will be the judge of my asthma thank you very much. Sedentary cycling is ok when you have nowhere to go.

And an adapated cycle is of no use to someone with Menieres disease who cannot judge distance and where the world literally swims.

@RockingMyFiftiesNot I would not pay £7 for an average glass of wine!
Maybe part of the issue is class? Our council leader and others working with him are well off and so think the car parking charge is not a lot? But we are fairly ordinary, not well-off and for £7 I would expect two pints of beer that would last me all night and is more than I usually drink.
And if you are going to high end restaurants £7 is not a lot.

£7 for a glass of wine!. No thanks. I generally have water with my meal anyway.

@Comefromaway

I find your attitude incredibly hurtful and patronising.

I will be the judge of my asthma thank you very much. Sedentary cycling is ok when you have nowhere to go.

And an adapated cycle is of no use to someone with Menieres disease who cannot judge distance and where the world literally swims.

There is no intention to be either hurtful or patronising.

My point is simply that bikes are not limited to the standard two wheeled variety, and that a great deal of effort has been put into ensuring that people with a great variety of physical and learning disabilities can still cycle.

Did you look at the link I included to the great variety of adaptive bikes on the market? Options that could work for someone like your husband who has balance, dizziness and distance judgement issues include
Traditional tandem tricycle www.cardiffpedalpower.org/our-bikes?lightbox=dataItem-ipb3o25m
Side by side tandem tricycle www.cardiffpedalpower.org/our-bikes?lightbox=dataItem-itiek36t

Slow cycling is fine for getting from A to B. I go at a very non-strenuous pace everywhere from the city centre to the supermarket. Given the parking situation, and the more direct routes available to me on my bike, I invariably find that the time taken to get from my front door to the shop I wish to visit is quicker by bike than by car.

Anyway, we have the usual voice urging everyone to cycle. Unless the only way to buy goods was to go into the city centre, I think a lot of city centres are going to die on their feet. We have lost Debenhams which had a big store and other smaller retailers. Apart from Primark, I don't know why anyone would go shopping in our city centre? I guess there are some decent shoe shops and shoes are harder to buy online.

am saying that even with good public transport into the city centre, I am not ditching the car. I was happy to when I used to go into the city centre to do a range of things.

So... Don't go. Factor the (not expensive) car parking charge into your visit.

Agree that public transport must improve. I loved living in Frankfurt (without a car) for that reason. It was great.

There is always a price point that will change most people's minds. Tgevtrich is to find it (and improve public transportation and cycling infrastructure)

You must be having a laugh.

@Brefugee That is what I am doing, not going. I will go for something special like a high-end meal or to the theatre. So maybe twice a year? I used to spend money in the city centre every weekend. I doubt I am the only person making this choice. But it will have an impact on the city centre.

I seldom go to our local Big City these days. They are so anti-car that it is off-putting - which is their intention, presumably. However, it doesn't make me want to use public transport instead of the car. It just make me want to go somewhere else more welcoming.

Public transport doesn't help itself when it is not inclusive towards the casual user. All their rules (about having an oyster card or refusing cash or insisting on the correct change etc) are off-putting. Why do I want to exchange my quicker, door-to-door service (my car) for an expensive, unfriendly system.
I might reconsider when I get my buss pass.

Small towns are no better. To park for an hour on the high street is £4.35 where I live.

Almost all the car parks are down at the bottom of town, and the high street is a very steep hill, and over a mile long. Bloody annoying when you just need to pick up a click and collect item from somewhere near the top of town, and you have an arthritic knee!

Last time I went to the hairdresser, the only car park nearby where you can park for more than 2 hours was full. All the on-street parking is also 2 hours max. It takes 3 hours to have my hair coloured, cut and dried.

I had to walk fucking miles and it took 10 days for my knee to recover.

If my hairdresser wasn't so bloody brilliant, I'd go elsewhere. And I'd get the bus if they hadn't cut the service from hourly between 7 am to 7 pm to about 5 buses a day between 11 and 5!

Our council are selling off the car parks to developers, ones you would park in then walk into town. You did have to pay so even those are not generating enough income when you think how much a developer will make from blocks of flats.

@senua

I seldom go to our local Big City these days. They are so anti-car that it is off-putting - which is their intention, presumably. However, it doesn't make me want to use public transport instead of the car. It just make me want to go somewhere else more welcoming.

Public transport doesn't help itself when it is not inclusive towards the casual user. All their rules (about having an oyster card or refusing cash or insisting on the correct change etc) are off-putting. Why do I want to exchange my quicker, door-to-door service (my car) for an expensive, unfriendly system.
I might reconsider when I get my buss pass.

If it's an actual Oyster card you're on about (i.e. you're in London) then they do also accept contactless credit / debit cards; it's the same in my city.

I have to say that working out the routes, for those unfamiliar with them, required a disproportionate amount of time and general confusion - but since CityMapper has expanded to include my city it's made it a lot easier to work out.

Ffs cycling isn't the answer to everything 🙄 I live in a bloody hilly area even regular cyclists have massive issues getting up it

when I shop I dont just buy a couple of bits I buy a lot including cat litter im not taking multiple trips with a bike when I can take one trip in a car I have a life indeed to live work I need to do disabled kids I need to transport it really passes me off that I spent a fortune getting my driving licence only for people to demand I cycle or walk yes there is "a bus" it stops at five pm which is fantastic for anyone wanting to go out at night its also prone to being removed because of "funding" setting itself on fire (yes that happens several times a year) breaking down (weekly) traveling in a heatwave with the heating on (switch broken by the time it was winter they had no heat on board at all) and one memorable year they sent the wrong bus on a route with speed bumps it was too low and broke something underneath flooding diesel everywhere....twice

I would rather take my car

Our council has so many cycle routes springing up there are traffic light systems all over while they crack on. It has made some of the roads very narrow the new one near us will mean that no-one will be able to park on the road, think small terraced homes with no front gardens.