I’ve had enough of the class dojo

[Myleftfoot39]

Every week one or two children win the dojo and get a prize. Some children have won it twice or three times. Today a child who defaced another child’s clothing (had written all over it in class) won it (they are in Year 2).

My ds is quiet, well behaved and works really hard. Does all his homework, is reading and writing and working hard. It’s awful but today he came out of school crying his eyes out because he thought he might win the dojo.

Even at bedtime he was upset about it.He doesn’t understand why the naughty kids get rewards but he feels ‘invisible’. He said there’s something wrong with him and is very upset.

I have reassured him and told him the dojo doesn’t matter but it really does matter to him. The teacher makes a big deal out of giving the dojo out as theres a photo of the child on the dojo for all to see.

I’m really fed up of it!!

I mean: we're going to start insisting that upset Y2s 'check their privilege' now.

FFS. It seems compassion and understanding is only allowed to go one way.

"Maybe we could have some compassion for the 6/7 year old who never wins despite being good all the time."

I'm sympathetic if a child never wins. But the parents in my class start saying it from about October. 38 weeks, 35 children. Lots of them have to wait. Maybe never just means not yet. And you'd be surprised how many parents say this at the end of the year because they've forgotten that their child won or the cert is still in their kids' bag. Maybe ask the teacher a question about how it works before jumping to conclusions.

"I mean: we're going to start insisting that upset Y2s 'check their privilege' now."

Y2 children are capable of understanding that they need to wait their turn, that everyone wins for different things, that some children find things hard that they themselves find easy. And most people's parenting is up to the task of explaining that in an appropriate way.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

"Tbh, so many of these behaviour management systems are just not fit for purpose. They can have all sorts of unintended effects and are riddled with unfairness and unintended biases."

Not unfair and no bias if everyone gets a turn across the year.

Unintended consequence - mean spirited griping from those unable to grasp the concept of 'your turn will come' or those outraged that those less deserving - in their opinion of course despite not being in the classroom - have been rewarded ahead of their own child.

OP is upset because everyone has won except two children - as presumably she's keeping track - even though there's half a term left. Someone has got to win in the Summer term! If the rest of the class have all won there has presumably been a big mix of winners, for all different things? She just wants someone else to be last.

I don't think you are able to appreciate how coming last, behind kids who have been 'naughty' (in a year 2's mind) might actually feel.

These systems are shit. Tbh, most parents think they're at best pointless and at most leave their child to last and upset about it. Especially when they end up last every year. Kids notice this stuff.

It's not easy for children to understand when their turn might come. Especially when they don't understand it's an arbitrary turn based thing and think it actually reflects their behaviour. The teachers purposefully try to get kids invested in these systems. It's not easy for the kids doing the right thing but having to wait and wait for rewards to understand. They just feel like they must be doing it wrong.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

"I mean: we're going to start insisting that upset Y2s 'check their privilege' now."

Y2 children are capable of understanding that they need to wait their turn, that everyone wins for different things, that some children find things hard that they themselves find easy. And most people's parenting is up to the task of explaining that in an appropriate way.

It's not sold as a wait you're turn thing to the kids. It's supposed to motivate them to behave well.

I agree with Fishy.

Nearly a whole school year is a LONG time for a well behaved kid to wait for their "turn".

I think this thread prove that it's impossible for schools to win when it comes to rewards.

We have parents of pupils with SEN saying they'll never win as the benchmark is too high.

We have parents of 'model' pupils saying that they never win because schools are busy rewarding the naughty kids for sitting still.

We have people saying it's not fair because 'it's always the same few' and other people saying 'if everyone is going to win what's the point of it then.'

Personally, I think that there's a place for it alongside all of the other ways we motivate, support and praise pupils for their efforts but everyone needs to feel like they've got a chance and also understand that they might have to wait for it to be their turn
I agree with all of this.
Whatever a school does regarding behaviour is going to annoy someone. Sometimes I wonder if it's easier in secondary because students see so many teachers that if one teacher is rubbish at rewarding the quiet majority it will tend to even out. Other days I'm not sure when I sign into my account and see that the allocation of points through the week doesn't match my understanding of my tutor group's week.

"I don't think you are able to appreciate how coming last, behind kids who have been 'naughty' (in a year 2's mind) might actually feel."

I do. I've got four dc and teach a similar age group. I know that most kids are able to appreciate that that 'naughty kid' did something exceptional for him and the teacher hoped to capture it and reinforce it.
I know the kids who cheer for that kid and the ones who sulk. Honestly, raising your kid to be one of the cheerers pays big dividends in all sorts of intrinsic ways.

And luckily, your ace kid will be getting all sorts of other praise at school - verbally, on his work, when he's given an important job to do, when his mates tell him his art is good, when he's allowed to write in pen, house or table points. So many ways that the good kids get their esteem boosted every day.

@LeafBeetle

I agree with Fishy.

Nearly a whole school year is a LONG time for a well behaved kid to wait for their "turn".

Especially when they don't really understand it's about waiting their turn. Or when Jack has had it twice already despite being rough in the playground.

They're all young kids. Maybe we can remember that and try to think about all their feelings and experiences. Indeed, systems and practices that are themselves compassionate to everyone probably do much better at helping children develop empathy and compassion.

"It's not sold as a wait you're turn thing to the kids. It's supposed to motivate them to behave well."

But you could explain that could you, as part of teaching them to understand things, to save your child getting upset about it all?

*Maybe we could have some compassion for the 6/7 year old who never wins despite being good all the time and is upset that the kids he sees being 'naughty' all the time get rewards and prizes that are supposedly about being 'good'.

Developmentally, that 6 year old is going to struggle to process that. But apparently he needs to be taught compassion because his life is just so much easier.*

Well his life is easier, isn’t it? And always will be. Perhaps in 15 years time when the child with SN is struggling to find employment, form relationships and live independently and your kid isn’t, you might have gained sufficient perspective to understand that a few gold stars in infant school are a small price to pay.

And luckily, your ace kid will be getting all sorts of other praise at school - verbally, on his work, when he's given an important job to do, when his mates tell him his art is good, when he's allowed to write in pen, house or table points. So many ways that the good kids get their esteem boosted every day.

I'm pretty sure DS1's entire experience at school was of not being a problem but also not being rewarded for actual achievements - day to day or otherwise. He's got SN (dyslexia, dyspraxia, autism) but is the type that sat there quietly underachieving and mostly being ignored by everyone. All sorts of things were hard for him and, even where he did do well, he didn't get recognised for it (I went to a meeting with the learning manager who couldn't understand why he wasn't on the G&T programme for maths in Y9, because all the kids assessed at that level were supposed to be - but he managed to have even the things he's good at go unnoticed because his handwriting was a mess).

The only rewards he ever seemed to get were 100% attendance for just not being ill for years on end.

DS2 doesn't give a shit about these rewards. Never has. He's been aware that it's a gamed system for years and sees it as stupid. He learns to cheer on people's achievements in all sorts of ways.

It amazes me that you don't want to see the many ways this kind of system just doesn't work very well. And can actually be utterly demotivating or cause resentment.

fourminutestosavetheworld
I think students can be both perceptive about and hurt by poor behaviour policies.

My Year 8s can tell you which teachers ways reward the 'naughty' students, which hand out reward points like candy, who gives points out fairly/unfairly. They're compassionate and understand that not everyone should be held to the same standards (for example they don't expect the student with a scribe each lesson to be expected to write as much as the top student is the class), but they are perceptive enough to work out whether the rewards are genuine and fair. Equally some students who display challenging behaviour are also very quick to work out which staff will throw reward points at them for writing the date, and which have higher expectations. They have more respect for the staff with higher expectations.

The majority of students do the right thing 95% of the time, and too often they are sidelined by staff who think they're motivating the minority, but in my experience the minority aren't motivated by having points awarded that they don't deserve. For some it reinforces the fact that some teachers don't expect much from them, and for others it's a green light to continue misbehaving.

*How can he be upset about never winning when there's still half a term left?

Making an appointment to say that he hasn't won yet sounds mad. Won't she just say yes, his turn will come?

Or is it that you'd rather someone else's child was last?*

I've had to ask the teacher how my child can win a Star Of The Week certificate at summer term Parents Evening and seen the teacher blush when she realised that she'd forgotten my child completely.

Asking now so that the forgotten kids get their go before the end of term is not unreasonable. Maybe it's not just 2 kids so there needs to be a few more kids who are awarded? Maybe the OP is in Scotland in which case there's less than 6 weeks until school breaks up?

Star of The Week sort of prizes mean that a child gets to be number one for the week while the rest of the class are in "last place" She's not asking the teacher not to pick a certain child, she'd like her child picked once which is reasonable.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

"It's not sold as a wait you're turn thing to the kids. It's supposed to motivate them to behave well."

But you could explain that could you, as part of teaching them to understand things, to save your child getting upset about it all?

That undermines the entire thing.

'Well it doesn't matter because everyone gets one eventually and it has nothing to do with their actual behaviour' is not going to help the kid that would actually try to behave better to win.

My dd left school 3 years ago and my ds this week. When they were in primary school they and their friends very quickly realised that the kids who misbehaved got the class award more than anyone else.

One friend at the age of 6 commented that it really made him want to play up in class and be naughty, but they didn't and by year 3 they just completely stopped caring about who got the awards.

Hopefully the system helps the naughty ones behave, because it's bloody demoralising for everyone else.

And luckily, your ace kid will be getting all sorts of other praise at school - verbally, on his work, when he's given an important job to do, when his mates tell him his art is good, when he's allowed to write in pen, house or table points. So many ways that the good kids get their esteem boosted every day.

There are many quiet kids who remain under the teachers radar so don't get picked for the popular jobs or are academically average so don't get the verbal praise for good handwriting or maths. It is assumed that their effort is average and they are often an afterthought for the teacher because they aren't badly behaved or making sure that the adults in the class notice them.

Granted that having friends boosts self esteem and makes going to school much easier but they aren't getting positive attention from the "system"

@LolaSmiles

fourminutestosavetheworld I think students can be both perceptive about and hurt by poor behaviour policies.

My Year 8s can tell you which teachers ways reward the 'naughty' students, which hand out reward points like candy, who gives points out fairly/unfairly. They're compassionate and understand that not everyone should be held to the same standards (for example they don't expect the student with a scribe each lesson to be expected to write as much as the top student is the class), but they are perceptive enough to work out whether the rewards are genuine and fair. Equally some students who display challenging behaviour are also very quick to work out which staff will throw reward points at them for writing the date, and which have higher expectations. They have more respect for the staff with higher expectations.

The majority of students do the right thing 95% of the time, and too often they are sidelined by staff who think they're motivating the minority, but in my experience the minority aren't motivated by having points awarded that they don't deserve. For some it reinforces the fact that some teachers don't expect much from them, and for others it's a green light to continue misbehaving.

Exactly.

It is always important to think about whether the behaviour management policies and practices actually work. And to consider what effects they actually have, as well as the ways in which this varies (and why).

All the parents I know tend to see star of the week or class dojo as just a pain in the arse. But not as bad as sending you home that bloody germ ridden class stuffed animal in reception. That's like a punishment for the parents.

It's not sold as a wait you're turn thing to the kids. It's supposed to motivate them to behave well.

They don't tell the kids that everybody has a turn. Or that the people who aren't Star of The Week aren't naughty because they weren't picked.

I remember a post on here where somebody told her dd that this was the case and the dd went to school the next day and told her classmates. While embarrassing for the OP I agreed that it was the truth and it helps for the kids to know that so they don't take it personally.

What is the point in even doing it though, if all the kids know it's nothing to do with their actual behaviour?

That's surely just a waste of teacher time that could be put to much better use. Maybe with techniques that might actually be effective in promoting good behaviour.

Okay. I can see that I'm outnumbered.

I'm genuinely interested and willing to change things in my classroom - how then would you ideally like a teacher to acknowledge something really exceptional?

Whether it's incredible effort, full marks, a project completed at home, an act of kindness etc.

Would this just be verbal praise or house points or something?

Actually I already give verbal praise all day, every day, for everything.

And I give house points for things like excellent work, sustained effort, taking a letter to the office, reminding me about something id have forgotten, holding a door open, helping a friend etc.

But I'd like to fairly reward children when they do something a bit more 'wow.'

I was raging when my sport loving child who plays cricket at county level, swims for his town, son the 100m, 200m and 800m races at school sports day and participates in a few aquathlons and gas meddled did not win Sports award at end of school year last year. The kid who is hopeless at sports but helps teacher tidy up at end of lesson just ahead of break time won the trophy that was supposed to be for attainment not effort. When I commented to teacher I was surprised child did not get it I was told the other child was in Year 11 and would not get another chance to win. My child was in Year 9 and would get other chances. To rub insult in injury my child awarded a star form price which holds no value for him whatsoever. He did not even want to go up and get it as it was meaningless for him. It is just a good job he has won lots of sports trophies elsewhere but still does not make it just.

@fourminutestosavetheworld

Okay. I can see that I'm outnumbered.

I'm genuinely interested and willing to change things in my classroom - how then would you ideally like a teacher to acknowledge something really exceptional?

Whether it's incredible effort, full marks, a project completed at home, an act of kindness etc.

Would this just be verbal praise or house points or something?

In my DC’s primary school they get to go to the headteacher to tell them about the ‘wow’ thing they’ve done.

The key things are that this is NOT an ‘every week I must choose one child’ thing. It is rare (happened to my child once in year 3 and once in year 6) which a) gives it more value and b) means that the kids and parents (and teachers!) aren’t keeping track of who has / hasn’t had it yet this term. And the kids really love it.

I hate behaviour systems where only one child can "win" at the end of the week. It's a ridiculous and pointless was to get children to behave. Our school has a "child of the year" award in each year group. I hate it with a passion.
Children should be recognised and praised for their individual successes.
If your ds is crying over it (has he never had it?) then I'd definitely mention it. My ds has had years with no weekly reward and been perfectly happy without it. This years teacher has started giving out gel pens for "the best" pupils at the end of the week and suddenly he feels let down and not good enough if he isn't chosen.