I’ve had enough of the class dojo

[Myleftfoot39]

Every week one or two children win the dojo and get a prize. Some children have won it twice or three times. Today a child who defaced another child’s clothing (had written all over it in class) won it (they are in Year 2).

My ds is quiet, well behaved and works really hard. Does all his homework, is reading and writing and working hard. It’s awful but today he came out of school crying his eyes out because he thought he might win the dojo.

Even at bedtime he was upset about it.He doesn’t understand why the naughty kids get rewards but he feels ‘invisible’. He said there’s something wrong with him and is very upset.

I have reassured him and told him the dojo doesn’t matter but it really does matter to him. The teacher makes a big deal out of giving the dojo out as theres a photo of the child on the dojo for all to see.

I’m really fed up of it!!

@fourminutestosavetheworld
I actually think it’s quite sad that teachers can’t see how this reward system effects the children who work hard and then get ignored.

" I actually think it’s quite sad that teachers can’t see how this reward system effects the children who work hard and then get ignored."

Your anecdotes are interesting but do you have any actual data on whether schools who offer incentives to troubled pupils have a negative impact on the mainstream cohort?

I think that would be interesting. Do the incentives work to keep those teens engaged with school, and do they actually have any sort of quantifiable negative impact on the other pupils?

IME most NT pupils are able to use their empathy to assess why those kids are getting something extra.

Ask any pupil who is resentful - would you rather be you or them? Do you think there is a reason for the incentive that the teachers know about but you don't? What do you think their home lives are like? What do you think their future looks like? Why is the school working so hard to keep them engaged?

@fourminutestosavetheworld
I have none of that data obviously because I am not privy to that what I can see is the effect he has on my son or do you think that that I should allow him to keep physically assaulting my son and name calling him? Everything you have said is exactly what is wrong with the system today. Let me ask you some questions that you might actually be able able to answer. Do you think over 1200 people who have agreed with the Op are all wrong? Do you think the teachers on here that you have been rude to are all wrong as well? We are defending our children. You are defending a system that according to this poll doesn’t work. As parents we are entitled to our opinion as it’s our children who are at the receiving end day after day.

Poor teachers/school policy so often reward those who are difficult in class whilst forgetting the consciousness pupils who just get on with their work.

[quote Juststopamoment]@fourminutestosavetheworld
I have none of that data obviously because I am not privy to that what I can see is the effect he has on my son or do you think that that I should allow him to keep physically assaulting my son and name calling him? Everything you have said is exactly what is wrong with the system today. Let me ask you some questions that you might actually be able able to answer. Do you think over 1200 people who have agreed with the Op are all wrong? Do you think the teachers on here that you have been rude to are all wrong as well? We are defending our children. You are defending a system that according to this poll doesn’t work. As parents we are entitled to our opinion as it’s our children who are at the receiving end day after day.[/quote]
No of course I don't think anyone should be on the receiving end of name calling and assault, absolutely not.

I am not aware of being rude to anyone on here, although I am allowed to disagree I think.

Oh I was a bit rude to one poster but if you read the exchange back I think you'll agree that that started with her misunderstanding something I said and accusing me of being rude about SEN children.

If you read my comments you will see that I have already asked for advice to improve my practice, said that I am going to make changes to aspects of my classroom rewards and thanked several posters for good suggestions. I have found the thread useful. What more can I do?

Whilst I don't necessarily think that a mn poll is the last word in how to operate rewards in the education system, since it is a parenting forum after all and you would get a different response on a teaching forum I daresay, I have certainly listened despite being just one teacher and not really up for taking on everyone's anger at an entire system and hundreds of other schools/teachers they've encountered in their whole lifetimes.

It is also fair to say that this thread has been contradictory at times - some people think 'everyone gets a turn' is meaningless whilst some people think it's essential, some people think rewards should be on merit while others think their child would never experience success on those terms.

However, one thing I do know for absolute fact is that parents sniping about other kids receiving rewards - especially those at secondary schools for disengaged pupils, which was most recently being discussed - really really don't know everything about those children, no matter what they think, and in many cases would feel a bit petty complaining about a trip to macdonalds if they did I think.

You can defend your child without complaining that a kid suffering neglect or abuse, who shares a room with three siblings, who lives with alcoholics, who is on track to disappear at say 16, had a free burger.

@fourminutestosavetheworld
And there are enough anecdotes from adults traumatised from childhood bullies to know that this should not be happening.

[quote Juststopamoment]@fourminutestosavetheworld
And there are enough anecdotes from adults traumatised from childhood bullies to know that this should not be happening.[/quote]
I am not defending bullies and am sorry if you or your son are experiencing trauma due to your experiences at school. But I do think that the rewards in place are separate from the bullying policy, I really do, and teachers must try to educate all children. I can see that we won't agree on this.

@fourminutestosavetheworld
I have no idea what is the solution to this is but what I do know is the effect this has on hard working kids who watch these reward systems with resentment and it effects their self esteem.

[quote Juststopamoment]@fourminutestosavetheworld
And there are enough anecdotes from adults traumatised from childhood bullies to know that this should not be happening.[/quote]
Bullying is completely separate to this. Every school should have a good,comprehensive and effective bullying policy that is public and enforced when bullying occurs. I wouldn't blame any parent for being cross or complaining if that didn't happen.

@fourminutestosavetheworld
I think what most parents are saying is that it isn’t separate from the bullying system.

[quote Juststopamoment]@fourminutestosavetheworld
I think what most parents are saying is that it isn’t separate from the bullying system.[/quote]
With respect, I would say that parents may not fully understand the systems in place to motivate and engage a bully, to encourage attendance and better behaviour, as part of a suite of strategies that will ultimately benefit everyone.

You can demand that your child is protected and kept safe but you can't say 'school must never do anything good for the bully, ever.'

@fourminutestosavetheworld
Do you not think that the very serious issues of alcoholism etc are issues that should be dealt with by social services and systems separate to the teachers so that the teachers can concentrate on the 29 other children in the class?

Surely what you do only treats the symptoms not the cure? And in the meantime you risk alienating students and parents?

[quote Juststopamoment]@fourminutestosavetheworld
Do you not think that the very serious issues of alcoholism etc are issues that should be dealt with by social services and systems separate to the teachers so that the teachers can concentrate on the 29 other children in the class?[/quote]
Tell that to the DFE and the government.

A school should have an effective anti-bullying policy that is separate from the rewards policy.

I regularly teach classes with a high number of children that many on this thread would decide shouldn't be rewarded. The bottom line in my eyes is I would reward any child in my class who was working hard, doing their best, improved their work, so why would I not put rewards points on for 'naughty' students when any other student would be rewarded?
If an able student hands in a rushed bit of work that's a grade 4 then they won't get a reward point. If a student who has a complex background tries hard and gets a grade 3 after weeks of barely doing anything then that deserves a reward because of the positive attitude and resilience they are showing. It's about rewarding appropriately.

If a 'naughty' student has been involved in an incident in Art, that doesn't change the fact they had a good lesson with me. If a 'naughty' student is currently the subject of an investigation for bullying, it doesn't change the fact they've worked hard on a piece of work in my subject and that work/attitude deserves to be rewarded. If that 'naughty' child has a bad lesson with me and disrupts others then they are sanctioned appropriately and don't get reward points from me, but I wouldn't expect other teachers, their off-site placement or their mentor or their pastoral support staff to refrain from issuing rewards in their areas because "you were disruptive in Mrs Lola's lesson this morning". Each lesson and each day is a fresh start, and it has to be that way.

Schools need to have effective structures and policies. It's a problem when they don't. Equally there needs to be a little more understanding that for some children it's entirely appropriate to be rewarded for things others have easily mastered.

@fourminutestosavetheworld I think for your 'coasting' children, it worth asking whether you are being unreasonable in expecting them to be going above and beyond. If they're fulfilling the requirements at school - behaving well, completing the work they've been asked to, etc - why should they necessarily do more than this?

It's a bit like doing a job that doesn't challenge you, but still doing it well. Maybe you have decided that you'd like to just coast along and earn enough for what you want in life. There's no real reason why you need to be pushing for more, If your appraisal said, 'well you are completely fulfilling all the requirements of the role but actually we aren't going to reward you with the bonus that comes with this because you aren't doing half of someone else's job too'.

Sure, we might want to try to motivate kids to try harder and be more ambitious or whatever. But it's worth considering whether that's actually a requirement for a kid that is always good and doing well without going further.

I don't have an answer for this. I just wonder why 'going above and beyond' becomes the benchmark rather than meeting the expectations. And if it might be worth thinking differently about this.

Partly I'm thinking about this as someone who has worked in higher education for many years now. And in one of those subjects where it was always impossible to get more than 80ish because the marking scheme set 100 at perfect in every way (regardless of level) as opposed to 'meeting all of the criteria set in this module at this level'.

In the past few years I have been thinking about how ridiculous it is to have a student taking a second year undergraduate module who has handed in work that would easily meet the criteria to pass, and even to receive a first or a distinction in a third year module or even at masters (this does happen sometimes) but to decide they can only get 85 or 90 rather than 100 because there are still flaws in the piece of work.

We routinely run first year modules where the expectations are for students to competently and succinctly describe a theory but we give them a 65 when they do so because the marks in the first class category are used for the students who've gone beyond the level expectations and are able to critically analyse aspects of the theory. But we're still not giving them 100 because there was definitely room for improvement or issues with their attempts to analyse. But all of those student have absolutely met the requirements for the module they're studying at the level they're studying.

Obviously we want to be able to reward the students who are excelling and exceeding the expectations. But I'm not sure penalising the student who just met them is reasonable either. If their response is as good as you can reasonably expect at the level they're currently studying, why shouldn't they get 100? The lower marks should really be for the students who aren't quite meeting the criteria, and to indicate the degree to which they are falling short.

But then you've got the problem of people complaining about grade inflation and a general feeling that you can't differentiate between the people with full marks. But we're not asking if the criteria are perhaps asking too little, partly because there may well be a large cohort who are very much not meeting them as they are.

I don't think there are easy answers here.

needs scrapping?

[quote Juststopamoment]@fourminutestosavetheworld
Do you not think that the very serious issues of alcoholism etc are issues that should be dealt with by social services and systems separate to the teachers so that the teachers can concentrate on the 29 other children in the class?[/quote]
I think it my job to educate those children as best I can regardless of how many other professionals are involved.

"If they're fulfilling the requirements at school - behaving well, completing the work they've been asked to, etc - why should they necessarily do more than this?"

They don't have to do more than this. They are still showered with verbal and written praise, class/table/house points etc. They are often the children chosen to do a little job or have a little treat. They are included in the homework raffle. So I don't want anyone to imply that they're ignored.

But yes I usually look for 'more than this' for an award like Star of the Week or similar. That is for doing something extra, something wow. Whatever your starting point, you will be noticed if you go the extra mile. It can be supporting a friend, a display of selflessness or kindness, pushing themselves to attempt something new etc. Or it always has been anyway, and every child will get it at some point during the year of course, because every child does something wow over the course of a year, but I'm thinking of changing the parameters of that award after reading this thread anyway.

But yes I usually look for 'more than this' for an award like Star of the Week or similar. That is for doing something extra, something wow. Whatever your starting point, you will be noticed if you go the extra mile. It can be supporting a friend, a display of selflessness or kindness, pushing themselves to attempt something new etc. Or it always has been anyway, and every child will get it at some point during the year of course, because every child does something wow over the course of a year, but I'm thinking of changing the parameters of that award after reading this thread anyway.*

I think often systems like these are things we do without really questioning what their purpose is (for us). Or we're operating on a whole set of unquestioned assumptions.

It may be that you do want a way of rewarding the exceptional, recognise that will look different for different children and that every child will do something exceptional at some point in the year. But star of the week might not be doing what you'd like it to.

Contrary to what some people on the thread think, I really don't think that schools are full of teachers with obvious favourites and rewarding bullies. I think most teacher just do star of the week etc because that's just what they do without necessarily really thinking about what they want it to do, what it is doing and any gap between the two. Not because they're lazy and inept but because there are so many things to reflect upon and consider. This probably doesn't make it to the top of the pile generally.

If a 'naughty' student has been involved in an incident in Art, that doesn't change the fact they had a good lesson with me. If a 'naughty' student is currently the subject of an investigation for bullying, it doesn't change the fact they've worked hard on a piece of work in my subject and that work/attitude deserves to be rewarded. If that 'naughty' child has a bad lesson with me and disrupts others then they are sanctioned appropriately and don't get reward points from me, but I wouldn't expect other teachers, their off-site placement or their mentor or their pastoral support staff to refrain from issuing rewards in their areas because "you were disruptive in Mrs Lola's lesson this morning". Each lesson and each day is a fresh start, and it has to be that way.

In Primary, the awarding of Star of the week Etc is a public affair unlike in secondary where kids might not share the same classes or even been aware of who gets merits.

Ime in secondary kids are just avoiding detention and are perfectly aware that some teachers give away loads of merits while others rarely award them. They are also aware that kids with the most points are the ones with the biggest problems so are happy not to be showered with merits.

In primary the star of the week type awards tend to be public and far more frequent so it is hard to pretend to be gracious when the kid who punched you gets awarded again. I'm not saying that they kids with issues don't need and deserve awards but I'm willing to bet that a child who misbehaves in Maths might be fine in Geography and your point that you as a teacher award based on behaviour in your class in perfectly understandable. You

But yes I usually look for 'more than this' for an award like Star of the Week or similar. That is for doing something extra, something wow. Whatever your starting point, you will be noticed if you go the extra mile.

Is consistently doing what is required not worthy of Star of the Week? For example taking care of school property like rubbers and pens is an expected behaviour but over the long term it is a wow behaviour imo.

Similarly there might be a child who doesn't need to be asked to do things twice. Pupils are expected to be listen but always listening to instructions is a wow behaviour or is this rewarded differently?

"Is consistently doing what is required not worthy of Star of the Week? For example taking care of school property like rubbers and pens is an expected behaviour but over the long term it is a wow behaviour imo.

Similarly there might be a child who doesn't need to be asked to do things twice. Pupils are expected to be listen but always listening to instructions is a wow behaviour or is this rewarded differently?"

The behaviours you outline here are routine, basic expectations that are adhered to by all of the children in my class.

The children receive verbal praise for consistently doing what is expected, or receive class/table/house points, but I wouldn't call it wow for all but those children with the most profound SEN.

Plenty of praise, or being chosen to do something a bit special, or glowing words to a parent at pick up, or being asked to do a job that is sought after is how I'd usually reward a child who is always and consistently meeting minimum expectations.

Star of the Week - or my school's version of that - is for something that elevates them beyond their peers that week.

You must have very well behaved classes.

I've been a parent volunteer and sometimes some kids aren't listening in the way that you'd expect from a child out of school too. I saw teachers having to remind and prompt multiple times eg not talking and paying attention where they are going while moving from classroom to assembly hall