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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think this is really unfair (maternity leave related)?

176 replies

Blyatiful · 26/05/2021 18:27

DH has a colleague who is on parental leave for eight months. He and his wife had a baby via a surrogate outside of U.K. Because his wife doesn’t work (she is an “artist” and sells the odd painting) he is taking all of the parental leave on full pay. If his wife had given birth, he would have qualified for a few weeks paternity leave, but as they outsourced the birth, the employer is treating it as adoption leave, and as his wife doesn’t work, he is being treated as the main parent.

I want to think, good on him, but my horrible side is taking over and I think it’s quite unfair (and don’t get me started on the ethics of surrogacy, which may also be skewing my views).

OP posts:
littleburn · 26/05/2021 21:51

For a father/partner to be entitled to SPL, the first requirement is that the mother is entitled to U.K. Statutory Maternity Leave (or Maternity Allowance if not), or the main adopter to Statutory Adoption Leave. If they're not, then there's no leave to convert into SPL to share with their partner.

So if the mother doesn't work, or the father/partner is employed in the U.K. and the mother is employed overseas, they fall at the first hurdle.

Seafog · 26/05/2021 21:52

You are some judgemental about it, for someone who acts like they aren't.

She is an artist,it is work, and not up to you to decide if it is valid/accepted/ whatever

OwlBeThere · 27/05/2021 01:00

@namechangemarch21

I think a lot of people are wrong about this.

A close friend was working in the Republic of Ireland while her husband worked in Northern Ireland. She'd worked for years in the UK, and they always planned to take shared parental leave. Her employer had crappy maternity provision, his had great: but they weren't legally allowed to take shared parental leave because she wasn't employed in the UK was basically 'wasn't employed' She looked into it A LOT, and so I feel pretty confident they were right that a man's shared parental leave is contingent on the wife's employment.

So I think the point is: he WOULDN'T be entitled to shared parental leave, its only the 'loophole' of it being an adoption despite it actually being a surrogacy. And there are good reasons IMO why 'traditional' adopters should get additional provision to jointly build a family unit which don't really apply here.

Tbh though, I mostly just think its crappy most men don't have more chance to take time off, and I do think its crappy that men can end up unable to use shared parental leave because their wives/partners work in a different jurisdiction, were made redundant at the wrong time, or chose to take some time out of the workplace. I don't think its about wishing this couple have less though, it should be about ensuring other engaged father's get more.

You’re almost right, except the woman can also be self employed and must fulfill the criteria to be eligible for maternity allowance, if she does then then man (providing he meets HIS criteria) is able to take SPL. Alternatively, what he’s taking might actually be statutory adoption leave.
BusyLizzie61 · 27/05/2021 06:16

@Blyatiful

DH has a colleague who is on parental leave for eight months. He and his wife had a baby via a surrogate outside of U.K. Because his wife doesn’t work (she is an “artist” and sells the odd painting) he is taking all of the parental leave on full pay. If his wife had given birth, he would have qualified for a few weeks paternity leave, but as they outsourced the birth, the employer is treating it as adoption leave, and as his wife doesn’t work, he is being treated as the main parent.

I want to think, good on him, but my horrible side is taking over and I think it’s quite unfair (and don’t get me started on the ethics of surrogacy, which may also be skewing my views).

@Blyatiful outsourced the birth Wow. Do you really think that this mother wouldn't have preferred to have carried, grown and birthed this baby? I presume you've never suffered with infertility or miscarriage to be quite so vile about it.

Good on them.
The situation is no different to any other family, one parent taking the entire leave. It's just it's the father doing so and you are jealous.

OwlBeThere · 27/05/2021 06:58

@BusyLizzie61 I fully agree, the way @Blyatiful talks about this woman she doesn’t even know to invalidate her both her career and her status as a mother.

Sometimesfraught82 · 27/05/2021 07:20

[quote OwlBeThere]**@BusyLizzie61* I fully agree, the way @Blyatiful* talks about this woman she doesn’t even know to invalidate her both her career and her status as a mother.[/quote]
In the OP’s own words, she’s “horrible”

Sleepingdogs12 · 27/05/2021 08:21

I think sometimes things happen and our gut reactions can be based on prejudice and discrimination. That is fine if you can recognise this and challenge yourself as to why you've reacted that way . The stats for men taking shared parental leave are really low, we should be encouraging it, not going with our gut about unfairness .

PaperbackRider · 27/05/2021 09:02

People who would exploit a woman to buy a baby are going to be people who will exploit a loophole to get paid time off work they wouldn't ordinarily be entitled to.

PaperbackRider · 27/05/2021 09:09

Also, being an artist and selling paintings means she does work. Granted she’s not spending 12 hours down the pit but it doesn’t mean it’s not a job

Doesn't mean it is a job either. She could do "art" for a couple of hours a week and sell 2 pictures a year for all you know.

ConfusedAdultFemale · 27/05/2021 09:14

It’s not at all unfair for a father to be allowed to take 8 months paternity leave, good on his employer for encouraging that! It is downright disgusting and abhorrent that they rented a uterus though.

pinkyredrose · 27/05/2021 09:50

Why did you write 'artist" and not just artist. Also she sells the odd painting and I’ve no idea how many paintings she has sold Hmm

You don't know anything about her work. How many galleries does she show at, how many art fairs, is she published, does she work by commission etc?

It's very out of order saying she "doesn't work'.

MrsPinkCock · 27/05/2021 10:01

The father would probably be entitled to either adoption leave or shared parental leave as long as they both meet the criteria, which is fairly easy.

I think it’s great that a dad is being supported by his employer to have paid time off. I’ve worked in law firms all of my life and men don’t dare take shared parental leave. One of the partners actually told my male friend that he could do it because it was a statutory right and they couldn’t stop him, but it would be frowned upon by the partnership and scupper his chances at promotion. He ended up not bothering which is ridiculous because he was actually the better parent between him and his wife!

It annoys me how antiquated a lot of these kinds of views are. It’s no wonder women struggle so much in the workplace.

Sometimesfraught82 · 27/05/2021 13:14

@ConfusedAdultFemale

It’s not at all unfair for a father to be allowed to take 8 months paternity leave, good on his employer for encouraging that! It is downright disgusting and abhorrent that they rented a uterus though.
If the surrogate had been forced to, I’d agree
bigbaggyeyes · 27/05/2021 13:18

I think rather thinking it's unfair, I think you should be congratulating the employer for being forward thinking and considering their employees wellbeing and work/life balance.

Tbh it's no different than a man being a my home, either being stay at home parent or simply not working and a woman having a child and taking a maternity leave.

I adopted a child and myself and my dh shared maternity leave. If before the adoption I'd decided to leave work, my dh would have been entitled to all the adoption leave.

Oh and 'outsourcing the birth' is a horrid way of explaining it

FTEngineerM · 27/05/2021 13:22

I think it’s lovely they get to spend 8 months together figuring out parenthood.

BigMoveHome · 27/05/2021 14:59

I think what matters here is the child. A child who is going through the trauma of separation from its birth mother and who now needs to bond with 2 new parents.

It is not the same as a normal pregnancy and should be treated as adoption due to this trauma. At the end of the day it is the best thing for the child to have both parents present during this critical bonding time.

At the end of the day this is what matters.

Luna2021 · 27/05/2021 15:19

You even admitted that your horrible side was taking over, you know you're in the wrong here.

As someone above have said, clearly you've never been experienced infertility or miscarriage as you have no idea what they have gone through as a couple to arrive at the services of a surrogate in order to have a child.

Also, shouldn't we celebrating that employers are making it easier for men to take parental leave?

Unreal.

Crocodilesoup · 27/05/2021 16:17

It's possible to have experienced infertility and miscarriage and still have major reservations about the use of surrogates.

BikeRunSki · 27/05/2021 16:23

@Blyatiful

I think my feeling of unfairness is that if his non-working wife had had the baby, he wouldn’t have been given more than two weeks paternity leave.
Yes he would, he would have qualified for shared parental leave and could have taken the bulk of it. He would have qualified as an adoptive dad and if his partner had carried the baby, so why not as the legal and biological father in a surrogate situation?

I say good for him and his employers for finding a way for him to spend time with his wife and new baby.

Sometimesfraught82 · 27/05/2021 16:53

@FTEngineerM

I think it’s lovely they get to spend 8 months together figuring out parenthood.
Totally agree

But I’m guessing that, like me, there are a lot of things in life that we think are lovely, positive, good things that the likes of the OP curl their lip at in horror or judgment

OwlBeThere · 27/05/2021 17:06

@PaperbackRider

People who would exploit a woman to buy a baby are going to be people who will exploit a loophole to get paid time off work they wouldn't ordinarily be entitled to.
You have literally no idea about the surrogates situation. Many surrogates do it because they feel it’s a nice thing to do. They aren’t buying a baby, they are at worst, renting a uterus.
OwlBeThere · 27/05/2021 17:08

Do the people who think surrogacy is disgusting also feel the same about adoption then?

luxxlisbon · 27/05/2021 17:10

Such a judgmental post. There is nothing wrong with the male taking the bulk of parental leave. They still could have done this if his wife was the one to carry and deliver the child, the surrogacy is completely irrelevant.

Sometimesfraught82 · 27/05/2021 17:11

@OwlBeThere

Do the people who think surrogacy is disgusting also feel the same about adoption then?
I’m all for surrogacy

I’m all for adoption

And I still think your question is completely irrelevant

PaperbackRider · 27/05/2021 18:27

Do the people who think surrogacy is disgusting also feel the same about adoption then?

Why would we, when they are in no way comparable?