I genuinely don’t know if I’m being unreasonable

[DoolallyBinzes]

There is so much to this story but the bare bones of it are that when I was with my ex we borrowed money from my Mum to pay our rent. We had only paid a small amount of it back when he left me. I had no money, no job, nowhere to live and 3 children to look after.
10 years later, Mum has died and my brother says I have to pay all the money back. I’m happy to pay half but I don’t see why I should pay for my ex’s share especially when he now has plenty of money.

Thanks OP for the update and for coming back to the thread where there has been some harsh opinions on either side. I think your resolution sounds very sensible.

@waitingpatientlyforspring

Your ex's share is irrelevant. If you took a loan from the bank they wouldn't be interested in the fact it was shared or spent on joint expenses, they just want it all back.

If your mum had written off the loan then I think it unfair you pay it back but you say you have been paying it back for five years so the expectation is you would pay it back so you should.

So if house was worth £90,000 for example, the estate is worth £96,000 which would be £32,000 each. So your brothers get £32,000 each leaving you £26,000 (£6,000 difference that you have already had and would have paid back if your mum had lived long enough).

This is a good way to do it. OP takes her share less $4,000 and her brothers get their share plus $2,000 each. Paying it back then splitting the estate doesn't make sense. It should be counted as money OP already got from mum's estate.

@DoolallyBinzes

Reasons I didn’t pay Mum back:- no money, on housing benefit; looking after Mum, on Carer’s Allowance; cancer, 6 months treatment, 6 months recovery; added the debt to the long list of money to be reconciled eventually. My conscience is completely clear regarding Mum. She was a wonderful Mum and I wouldn’t have borrowed the money from her if she couldn’t have afforded it. I certainly never took advantage of her. I’m going to pay the debt back into the estate. I feel it’s the right thing to do and I need to let go of my feelings of injustice regarding my ex.

Apologies, I think misunderstood the bit where you said you were in a position to pay her back for 5 years but she forgot about the money so you didn't.

Sounds like you've reached a fair solution and sorry for your loss

Yeah I think you need to give back two thirds of the money. But only £4000. Had the money been part of the estate at the time of death, then you would also receive one third. Hence only two thirds are owed to the estate.

My MIL has lent thousands to my SIL, but has stipulated that in the event of her death, it should come off SIL's inheritance.

Your ex is not relevant, it was your mother and her estate. I think that it is reasonable to expect the balance of the loan to be taken off your portion of the estate.

You’ve made the right decision OP. You borrowed the money, your mums passing doesn’t stop the money being owed back. After all, any monies she’s owed back from utility companies, pensions etc will get paid to her estate. And so should your debt.

I’m sorry for your loss, I hope you have support in RL

The signed letter sounds more ominous to me than anything, did she write the content herself or was she told to sign something that was juts placed in front of her (sorry if you said this already)

And to the poster: My PIL have lent a huge amount to SIL over the years. They always tell us this, and say "Don't worry, SIL will remember to make recompense for this sum when we die".
That's awful! (And I hope your sil knows!!!)

OP I've no (decent) advice. I hate all this stuff. I always wondered how families drifted apart over this sort of stuff but then you never envision your family drifting apart full stop and now it's kind of happened with us (just naturally nothing to do with wills or money or anything)

@SheilaWilcox

YABU to have left it 10yrs to be paid back. Yes you should have repaid the entire amount, even your exes, as the money was lent as you were her child, your ex just happened to benefit.

YANBU to think the now she has died the debt has been written off.

This sims it up perfectly. When she was alive you had an obligation to pay it back, not him. Once you’d split that was on you as it was your mum who loaned the money.

Once your mother died you are not unreasonable to assume the debt died with her - unless she stipulated otherwise to your brother in writing with witnesses. I think your brother is being way out of order.

She probably lent you the money because she didn't want to see you and her grandchildren homeless so it is a loan to you.if the signed paper you mention states you are both responsible for the loan you could ask him for his half and see what he says.
Personally,I think your brother is being harsh and mean and I would just write it off.
Maybe speak to citizens advice to ask where you stand legally if he is not prepared to drop this.
If the loan still stands you could consider the small claims court to get some back from your ex if he is named on the letter.
Sorry for your loss,you don't need this on top.🌈🌈🌈

@stayathomer. The signed letter was something my solicitor asked for during my divorce in the hopes my ex would pay his share. Sadly the judge wasn’t interested. Nothing sinister.

@CoffeeCakey. Thank you.

@KarmaStar. Thank you.

@Blindstupid. Thank you.

[quote Librariesmakeshhhhappen]@knittingaddict

Eh.. yes there is.

Her mother fully intended for that money to be repaid. She got dementia and couldnt remember. So what did the OP do? She didnt pay it back, because mum couldn't remember to make her. The money still belonged to and was owed to the mum. The only reason it wasnt paid back is because the mum was ill and OP could get away with keeping it. This is a woman who has financially abused her dementia suffering mother.[/quote]
I didn't mean that there wasn't abuse by the op towards her mother. I was replying to the person who said this:

Clearly the situation is more complicated than meets the eye (there may even be abuse and there's clearly a reason why OP feels her mum was responsible for ex's share).

It's really difficult to say, given OP doesn't feel comfortable talking about it too much.

Who seemed to be implying that the op was the victim of abuse. I assumed by the boyfriend, but she may have meant by the mother. It wasn't clear.

@DianeCherry. Thank you. Yes, I’m going to do that.

Once your mother died you are not unreasonable to assume the debt died with her - unless she stipulated otherwise to your brother in writing with witnesses. I think your brother is being way out of order.

Debts don't die on death. How many more times does this need saying.

@Lettuceforlunch

We had a similar situation and tried to even it up. DF died, he’d given two of the three siblings approx £10K and was expected to give the same to the third. We split that £20K three ways, so all ended up with just under £7K and then split the estate three ways. All believed it to be fair and what DF would have wanted.

Having read all of the posts, I think this is right...

OP : your mum loaned the money to you, your ex was just riding on your coat tails! I really DO think you should pay it back, as even if you could not then, with an inheritance you can now. You should pay the loan back to the estate, and then the amount gets split 3 ways

The amount your brothers earn is their business, I think kids are entitled to an equal share/help from parents, and that if some need it when living it should come as less inheritance (except if the parents direct otherwise due to need like disability, losing spouse for a SAHP etc

I honestly think stopping paying back when your mum forgot due to dementia was a bit sneaky. I think you should think about being fair to your brothers: how much value do you put on your relationship with them & their families: more or less than 2K?

@honeylulu

The debt after 6 years ... I'm not sure it would be beyond the statute of limitations. What does the letter your mum have you set out regarding the term of the debt and repayment? If it says the repayment date was more than 6 years ago and she chose never to action insisting/enforcing repayment then arguably the debt can't be pursued. (The 6 year limitation period runs from the date the contract was breached - so, not when the loan was entered into but when you failed to meet the repayment date. Otherwise everyone could just stop paying their mortgages after 6 years, I wish!) If there was no repayment date set out (and/or the letter doesn't provide that any unpaid element comes from the estate) then legally you will probably owe nothing.

Morally - that's a different question. On one hand you have been enriched by borrowing money you did not repay. You admit that you have been able to repay the money for the last 5 years but have not done so. On the other you may be considerably worse off than your brothers and they are being "tight" not to let it go and risking a family fall out over a relatively small proportion of the estate.

My husband was in this situation. He had fairly wealthy parents and was one of four siblings who had had mixed success (or not) in life. A couple of the siblings were given a LOT of help during PIL's lifetime. I'm talking buying them houses/pensions/ paying grandchildren school fees etc. There was always mumbling about how it would be evened out in their estate and those siblings were just getting some of their inheritance early.

But then MIL died suddenly and FIL got dementia (then died a few years later) so the wills never got updated and the siblings were left an equal split. (Sadly one of the feckless siblings ended up predeceasing PIL). Youngest BIL banged on about how the large amounts SIL had received should be deducted from her share but it all got very upsetting. By then SIL had separated from her partner, was in a wheelchair and disabled. As a lot of the money had been paid within 7 years of PIL dying it did not escape IHT and to not only deduct the sums from her share but also the IHT would have left her with a tiny further inheritance for which she was in greatest need out of all the siblings.

Husband persuaded BIL that equal wasn't necessarily fair and had PIL been around to have a say they wouldn't have left SIL struggling so an equal split it was, with the IHT deducted equally from each share. BIL did gripe about it a bit but life went on and no one fell out. That's just an example!

I hope that you and your brothers reach a solution but I suggest you have a think about what is morally fair, bearing in mind that you had the means to repay and didn't. (Would it have left you consideably worse off than your brothers for example? What would your mother have wanted/done?)

PP are right though. You only owe £4k to the estate so don't get talked into parting with more than that!

Disclaimer: I'm a solicitor but not a probate one.

Sorry, you may be a solicitor but you are wrong!

OP owes £6k to the estate. Remember that the estate has to be split 3 ways. Therefore OP pays £6k to estate, then gets £2k of that back in her inheritance.

Simple arithmetic....If she only paid £4k back into the state she is not repaying her full debt to the estate. She would be entitled to a 1/3 share of the estate, (including 1/3 of the £4K she had returned to the estate). This would obviously leave her with £2k more than her brothers!

If op benefitted fully from the loan, ie it all went on their rent, then it was primarily loaned to her rather than jointly. Clearly it was a loan not a gift, therefore balance is owed to the estate. Whether her siblings insist that it is repaid, either in cash or as a deduction from her share, is discretionary but I fear technically they are correct. If it were a loan to a non beneficiary they would all be chasing it.

I'm pretty sure it doesn't work like this.
My mum has " lent" money to my dbro. In reality she doesn't expect it back. Her will stipulates whatever she has gets left split between us. There is nothing about loans or gifts. So that is what will happen.
During her life she is free to give what she wants to anyone.

If your mum put it in writing that it was a loan, then she clearly expected it to be paid back. I am very surprised that you didn't pay it back over the last 6 years when you could. I would pay it back to the estate, by way of taking a smaller share. Morally, it seems the right thing to do IMO.

You need to deduct it from your share of the estate. Your mother's debts died with her, but money owing to her are still recoverable.
Your brother would need to prove the debt existed, of course.

I have said in an earlier post that I’m going to pay the £6,000 to the estate then split it 3 ways once the house is sold. I was just a bit taken aback when my brother mentioned it, as if I’d forgotten about it, and I asked what about my ex’s share? Bit of a knee jerk reaction really.
My brothers haven’t “found me out,” I’ve always been transparent about Mum’s finances and how I’ve dealt with them.
I’m neither sneaky nor disgusting. I haven’t financially abused my late Mother. We had a fantastic and very loving relationship and it broke my heart when her dementia meant she didn’t recognise me, or my brothers anymore.
I haven’t mentioned any abuse or how well off or not my brothers are.
The poster who said something along the lines of I should be in prison did make me laugh so thanks for that.

@DoolallyBinzes

Reasons I didn’t pay Mum back:- no money, on housing benefit; looking after Mum, on Carer’s Allowance; cancer, 6 months treatment, 6 months recovery; added the debt to the long list of money to be reconciled eventually. My conscience is completely clear regarding Mum. She was a wonderful Mum and I wouldn’t have borrowed the money from her if she couldn’t have afforded it. I certainly never took advantage of her. I’m going to pay the debt back into the estate. I feel it’s the right thing to do and I need to let go of my feelings of injustice regarding my ex.

I think its your Brother who is harsh here. I have 3 brothers and am the eldest of the 4. I was very fortunate that I managed to get on the property ladder in 2001. Two of my other Brothers borrowed over 10k from my parents (they are not wealthy at all but it was their pension pot). One of my Brothers is doing really well and 10 years later has just paid it back. My other Brother will never be able to afford to repay (low income, disabled child). I would never ever dream of asking him to deduct this from my DP estate, it just would not enter my head.

What sort of Brother is he if he knows the tough time you have had and wants you to repay it?

I’m another person saying the debt died with your mother- you can’t pay her the money back, she’s gone. What your brother actually means is he wants you to give him the money. But you don’t owe your brother any money because you didn’t borrow it from him.