Maths ... AIBU?

[eatsleepread]

I was chatting with a colleague the other day; we have daughters in secondary school, and both are struggling with Maths. I am currently looking for a tutor for my daughter.
I simply cannot understand the 'one size fits all' approach to the teaching of this subject, and believe that it requires an overhaul. Why - when she does perfectly well in her other subjects - would my daughter need to learn about the equation of a line, trigonometry, algebra? What good is going to come of this in her everyday future life?
Rather, why can't she be taught mathematics related life skills? Lessons that revolve around addition, subtraction, percentages, bank statements, interest ... and all other useful elements of the subject.
Leave the serious study of maths to those who are gifted or even interested in it. And let the others ditch it in favour of the practical basics, where they might actually achieve something.
Why are they all still being taught the same things? And why are so many young people particularly girls still failing at this subject?
AIBU?

Some people below were confused about algebra being a form of arithmetic.

Wouldn’t it also give greater confidence and hope for people to have an exam on a smaller amount of material, but which most people can succeed at if given enough time and practice. Those that don’t pass, can have more training and do it again next year, rather than having to move on to more topics before mastering basic arithmetic.

Exams that most people can pass end up being called "dumbed down" by employers, politicians and universities. This is why they made GCSEs and A-levels harder.
Unfortunately the English system doesn't allow repeating a year if you don't pass.

I thought about this a lot as I struggled very much with maths.

I think there should be two types of maths exams as there are 2 types of English exams. Why not a practical maths exam and a separate one for the more non practical stuff?

To clarify, not 2 tiers.

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline

Op, I think it's absolutely awful how they push maths.

It's not the same as as English at all because of course we need to read nearly evry day and we need to read to get by in life and get around.

It's very different in maths because we don't need to know alebgra or the circumference of a circle to get by day to day.

I totally agree op that such dc should be taught other forms of maths like day to day budgeting, investing, even eccomics, inflation, mortgage, debt.. All that stuff.

Nor do we need to analyse poems and literature day to day, or write creatively, or produce newspaper articles, or understand Shakespeare. I don't write essays after reading books or watching movies.

English really isn't more important than maths.

I think they should keep giving real world examples like they do in primary. Because I did not know I was using algebra to work out my bills. I remember adding up change in primary school but in secondary I can only remember lines and lines of maths that didn't seem linked to anything else. I might have been more interested if I would have known to go home and ask to see the utility bill or flick through the recipe book and change the recipe. This thread's interesting, as someone who's always been told they're not confident in maths and is desperately trying to get better to give a good example to my son.

This attitude of "I don't need maths, I can just ask Google" is quite depressing.

Maths teaches the rigor of logical thinking. What is known? What is unknown? How can I figure out the unknown from the information I have?

GCSE maths is not at at particularly high level, Korean children do that level at primary (although I'm not advocating for their system).

It is possible to pass GCSE without really understanding the maths and you don't know when it will be useful.

I've used maths at uni to help a drama student work out how much stage he needed for some props.

Maths is used a LOT in cooking, not just for recipes but if you are going to own your own restaurant you need to know how to multiply up, order the right ingredients etc.

If you work in A and E you might need to calculate a drug dose in your head or calculate a heart rate.

I do think there is some bad teaching though, and I'm not teacher bashing, schools will give the top sets the 'best' teacher and the lower sets might be taught by anyone who has a spare slot in the timetable.

My favorite thing teaching post 16 is when I explain something and a students goes, "Oh I understand that now".

@Puttingouthefirewithgasoline

Op, I think it's absolutely awful how they push maths.

It's not the same as as English at all because of course we need to read nearly evry day and we need to read to get by in life and get around.

It's very different in maths because we don't need to know alebgra or the circumference of a circle to get by day to day.

I totally agree op that such dc should be taught other forms of maths like day to day budgeting, investing, even eccomics, inflation, mortgage, debt.. All that stuff.

But GCSE English isn’t learning how to read. In GCSE English we analysed poems, which isn’t needed an general everyday life any more than knowing the circumference of a circle.

[quote Iamnotminterested]@Gingernaut I see what you're saying, but there are also many many careers that don't rely on maths, which brings me back to my comment about everybody learning numeracy and those with passion/interest taking it further.[/quote]
But if you are not taught the stuff how do you know you have a gift or passion for it? They are taught maths and if the don’t have an aptitude for it, they go into a lower set.

If kids don’t like reading, we try and introduce them to books that interest them. Why not do the same with basic maths?

I also think the basic maths and basic reading/comprehension should be competency based rather than normalised exams where people are ranked according to their year.

I have also always enjoyed maths and have a masters degree in maths. I’ve also therefore helped lots of family children with their maths homework.

Maths is hard but actually quite logical. Typically for children you have an equation or a method and most questions are the same method just with slightly different numbers. Naturally numerical kids will notice this after a few questions. Other kids need lots of practise to see the pattern and then it can click.

It really upsets me when you hear parents (including in my own wider family) that they hate maths, or it’s not practical, or it’s too hard. A child will think ‘well if my mum/dad can’t do it, I can’t’.

The only way to improve at maths is practise and in my experience if parents don’t like maths then the required practise isn’t achieved as no one is there to assist the child until it clicks for them.

I love maths, and hate the too hard comments too. But I think the curriculum is bonkers DD is Y8 she has dyslexia, poor working memory, slow processing. She is never going to get a concept- say percentages in 4 lessons (1 week) which is all it gets. Next week they'll be on to something else and not come back to percentages for a year.
She will end up doing functional maths not because she can't do it but because the curriculum is inflexible.

You'd be surprised how much maths my job involves, I know I was. There's a reason you need maths and English at gcse for even some quite low paid jobs.

@Doodledoop Good teaching would revisit the topic regularly as part of other lessons. Perhaps your dd isn't aware this happens or perhaps the school she is at doesn't do this.

Is she in a set group? This year many schools have had to be mixed ability and this hasn't benefitted some groups of students.

The curriculum (as with all education) is a best fit to the majority. You'd be equally annoyed if your dd was a high flier and spending 6 weeks on percentages because some students hadn't grasped it yet.

Have you spoken to school about tools to support her working memory? I give students a timetable grid, scaffolded worksheets, their own whiteboard, use of a calculator even when others aren't allowed (if the skill is not written calculations).

Huh? You think for kids who will want to go on to careers in machine learning, AI, engineering, even astronomy, all they need is how to figure out a bank statement?

What a bizarre argument and a way dumb down education. Every child is taught his stuff so as to give them a chance beyond GCSE what they want.

I struggled with maths in relation to number (I didn't know my times tables and still don't and I'm 37) but excelled in shape and space, trig and pi etc

In science I was awesome at biology and plants etc but hopeless at the periodic table etc

There will be some aspects of maths she really understands well. I focussed on making sure I got all the marks in the exams on those questions and did my best with the others. I managed to get a C which was a pass so that was good enough for me

@Doodledoop
Exactly the same here with my DD

@Doodledoop

I love maths, and hate the too hard comments too. But I think the curriculum is bonkers DD is Y8 she has dyslexia, poor working memory, slow processing. She is never going to get a concept- say percentages in 4 lessons (1 week) which is all it gets. Next week they'll be on to something else and not come back to percentages for a year. She will end up doing functional maths not because she can't do it but because the curriculum is inflexible.

My Y8 (top set maths) actually complains that they re-visit too often! So that sounds like a failing in your school.

Why would she end up doing Functional Maths if she’s capable of all the concepts but needs more time? Why aren’t you covering them at home? There is a wealth of online resources, we are so lucky these days. You can get a Level 5 GCSE if you know KS3 thoroughly (at least - in OCR, I can’t speak for other boards). And a 4 is a pass. Even better with a tutor, but if you can’t afford that, the material online for you to teach her at home is fantastic. Don’t give up already in Y8!

If kids don’t like reading, we try and introduce them to books that interest them. Why not do the same with basic maths?

This is a straw man argument. The majority of people who don't like maths have insecure foundation knowledge in maths. Basic maths needs to be built from the correct understanding of numbers and how they relate to each other. Starting with concrete objects and building up (eventually) to the abstract. Introducing a context (beyond objects) to those insecure foundations doesn't help. It hinders as the brain can only process so much information at once.

Don’t people also have a motivational issue? Won’t some people be turned off because they cannot see how it is applicable beyond an exam?

Some people have to pick up specific bits of maths during science courses etc. What they might not have grasped before can become clearer in the context and due to motivation to learn?

I think that your daughter may benefit from a different teacher? She may be struggling at school not doesn't mean she can't catch up, grow in confidence and learn to love maths

If you get behind in maths, it's really hard to catch up. And then end up on a downward spiral of failing and feeling hopeless

And now she's lost confidence and damaging to her self esteem

Give her a chance, get her a tutor

@Namenic Not really. We don't make interpreting Shakespeare relevant beyond an exam and people cope. Motivation in education comes from being secure in your environment (behaviour, routines etc) and feeling some success regularly. Making maths out to be only something that can be understood in a specific context is doing the maths a disservice.

But why force people to do something they are not interested in, decreases their confidence, where they get frustrated if they can’t keep up with all the new material?

Because then they'll attempt to get a job and not be able to apply for a lot of even basic level positions that require maths and English GCSE?

For better or worse, maths and English GCSE passes are seen as a basic level of intelligence - literate and numerate. It would be ridiculous to not attempt to get as many pupils those vital qualifications as possible. Funnily enough, the major problem there isn't getting girls through maths GCSE. The issue is getting boys through English GCSE. The pass rate for boys in English in 2019 was 54% and for girls was 70%, massively lower for boys.

In comparison for maths it was 60.1% for boys and 59.2% for girls - pretty much the same pass rate.

And yet here we have a post about how girls can't do maths and shouldn't be forced to do it. Do we have threads about how boys can't do English and shouldn't be forced to do it?

Incidentally, people mentioning dyscalculia on this thread - it's not really considered at thing, very few people will give a diagnosis (unlike dyslexia).

Efforts to pinpoint why some pupils struggle with maths have generally found that either they were poorly taught maths in primary school so they have very weak foundations, or they have some other (diagnosable) learning difficulty such as slow processing speed or poor working memory, both of which will impact on ability to do maths quickly. These may give the specific impression of being 'bad at maths', but it's not a problem with maths itself.