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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Sometimes I feel like this is George Orwell’s 1984

299 replies

Namechangeforobv · 20/05/2021 14:36

Name change as my last thread attracted a lot of attention.
Anyway, am I the only one that feels like freedom of speech is slowly dying?!
If my opinion or views differ from the ‘woke’ then it is clearly not valid!

For example I voted to leave the EU, I chose this because leaving benefitted me more than staying. My personal circumstances, my personal choice.
Conversation starts at work about it, I was asked what I voted and immediately discussion closed because it was so “wrong” that I had voted this.

YABU for “no your wrong”
YANBU for “yes I agree”

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 20/05/2021 23:19

But the consequence should not vary in severity based on the opinion you hold being the minority.

It does though - most people aren’t racist. So a racist person gets a stronger consequence of their racist opinion. That’s nothing new.

Namechangeforobv · 20/05/2021 23:21

@paralysedbyinertia

OP, as long as you are staying within the law and not inciting hatred etc, you have every right to say what you think, to vote as you choose and to hold whatever views make sense to you personally. I absolutely and wholeheartedly support your right to express those views freely. That is the fundamental nature of our democracy.

However, I do not promise that I will respect your views, if I think they are misguided or stupid. I respect your right to hold those views, but I might not respect you very much after you have expressed them. I would be polite to you, of course, but I might decide that I don't like you much, or that I don't value your opinions very much. I might make judgements about your character or your intelligence on the basis of what you've said.

The right to free speech means just that - you can speak freely. It doesn't mean that people can't judge what you say.

This is very eloquently put and I appreciate your input.

I couldn’t agree more and I think respecting everyone’s right to hold an opinion is key.

OP posts:
BiBabbles · 20/05/2021 23:32

The Thought Police were a secret police, maintained by the government as part of its system of maintaining power. The British government does not give fuck what our opinions on Brexit are at this point. It's certainly not trying to stop people talking about it. In fact, it benefits them to have this rhetoric that they supported the 'silence majority' and have people argue over who can say what while they do as they like.

I just think it’s healthy to take into account everyone’s views, including yours, we don’t have to conform to them nor should we disregard them due to being different

There are benefits to seeing multiple sides of an argument, but that doesn't mean it's always healthy to see all sides or that there are not risks to spending time ruminating over the different sides of the argument. There is that whole saying about being so open minded one's brain falls out.

I have had people tell me, in their opinion, that if I had any real human feelings towards the burdens I cause others I would kill myself, and my not doing so is proof of my inhumanity. I have other people tell me that I shouldn't have been allowed to immigrate because I don't celebrate the right holidays and my children should be taken from me because I left the faith of my father.

Would it be healthy to take those opinions into account? Probably not. The only ones whose opinions matter on my immigration were the government, they were the only ones who had power to do anything, not the random person who thinks I should be deported. What someone feels about something matters little, it's what people have the power to do that matters.

You have a right to your own thoughts, but once you express them to others, it's up to you to make the argument for them. People are free to dismiss, ignore, and not perpetuate such an argument. I don't need to consider any of them anymore than I need to consider what corporation advertise at me their opinions on what I should buy or all the things on Facebook marketplace. They're there, but it doesn't mean I have to take much notice or give it space in my life. Freedom of expression does not mean power to compel people to pay attention and engage with said expression.

Blacklists are not new, calling it a culture doesn't make it one. We can shoulda, woulda, coulda all day long - ostracizing is a nasty part of being a social species, many other animals do it. Social media can make rabid beasts of people, but the issue is what institutions give these people - of all policial stripes - the power to do with their arguments, not that people can freely ignore arguments and opinions. Ignoring cancel cries of Twitters and so on is a route many take, and can freely do. Many are supporting these 'canceled' voices through other means and cancel culture is slowly but eventually shifting. Into what is anyone's guess, but I would like it to move away from this 'who is the most silenced and oppressed of all' narrative which I can't see any good coming from.

Notthemessiah · 20/05/2021 23:41

@FOJN

I do think people deserve to have their careers ruined depending on the views they express. Presumably if someone came out in support of, say, rape being ok within a marriage, that you wouldn't argue for them keeping their job?

My god the gaslighting on here is shocking.
This thread: no one is being censored for having different opinions
Also this thread: I think people who have opinions I don't like should lose their job.

An opinion on rape in marriage, no matter how disgusting, is not the same as committing the crime of rape.

Huh? Who said they were the same? Fairly sure that if you are convicted of rape (admittedly all too rare) then you get a bit more than a few angry tweets and the vague threat of losing your job.

You also seem to think these two things are antithetical (as far as I can tell):

This thread: no one is being censored for having different opinions
Also this thread: I think people who have opinions I don't like should lose their job.

but they really aren't and quite a few posters have already put it better than me. You are free to say what you want (so not censored) but not free from the consequences of saying it (so OK to have people calling for you to be sacked and then actually being sacked).

So no, no gaslighting here I'm afraid.

Stitched77 · 21/05/2021 00:02

@Pumperthepumper

How to medicate people? It was a made up idea but, well, the vaccine is being pretty heavily promoted - for some reason 90%+ uptake is not enough - do you hear the strength of the coercion message lately?

Who was it was said mRNA was like an "operating system" for the body? Was it a tinfoil hatter with a 5G theory? Or was/is it:

Moderna:
www.modernatx.com/mrna-technology/mrna-platform-enabling-drug-discovery-development

Who knows what can be done with a biological "operating system" - how it can be updated?

Why do the "official" "factcheckers" say otherwise?
www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-vaccine-naming-idUSKBN2AA2CB

I refer to @MayYouLiveInInterestingTimes
comment to me. This is the point of the Online Harms Bill - the aim will be promoted as stopping violent porn etc but it will be used to censor what "truth" we are told - only the official truth - which we all know is a lie - or have the WMDs been found yet? Has Thalidomide been found to be safe again? Has Bashir given us a big reveal about the Di interview? Was Prof Meadows abusive use of statistics ok when he got women jailed for tragic cot deaths?

Or now and from now on, is the government definitely telling the truth and can be trusted to do so and control the narrative? Or do you think that dissenting voices are needed - and we need to use our brains to filter out the nuts stuff rather than allowing the government to do it for us

These questions are very relevant right now. I mean it

phodopus · 21/05/2021 00:19

I blame the internet, specifically social media. It's too easy for people to find an online corner where everybody thinks the same way, and they form an "us vs them" mentality. Within that corner, the common view isn't really challenged so they develop the idea that they shouldn't be challenged, and finally that any perceived challenge is offensive.

In times past, even if your opinions were outside of the norm, you couldn't just cosset yourself away in a corner where nobody would challenge you. Those corners for the most part didn't exist. Perhaps that was also a bad thing in the some ways, because there was more pressure to conform to the norm. On balance, the Internet is a good thing, and if used carefully can broaden and open one's outlook, providing an insight into others' lived experiences and views, but it's not always used that way nowadays.

SunscreenCentral · 21/05/2021 00:28

Don't agree with your choice in voting to Leave at all, but hit Yanbu. You are free in your decision. I hope your decision turns out well for your country.

PinkArt · 21/05/2021 00:50

OP was your deleted thread by any chance about Prince Harry? One that was deleted recently as 'not in the spirit' started with a very unpleasant post and continued in the same manner.

silentpool · 21/05/2021 02:31

I don't really bother to discuss topical/political issues with people any more. It seems that people have forgotten the art of discussion and insist on their opinion being the only one. And then get insulting when you disagree with them because obviously Wrong Think on your part.

SmokedDuck · 21/05/2021 03:19

I get the feeling there are people on this thread who are deliberately being obscurantists.

The idea of open public discourse of course does not mean f someone says they think it's ok to rape babies you have to be friendly with them, or that there are no consequences to things people say.

But there has been a significant loss of the ability to have these conversations. I don't know if some people are just young enough that they actually have no knowledge of this, but people used to commonly have quite significant differences in views about all kinds of things, and remain respectful and friendly. The issues people are mentioning here - EU membership, women's rights, and so on, were not things that made people somehow beyond the pale.

Ironically the repeated statements that there is nothing wrong with disrepecting people who have the wrong views, or that it is ok for them to lose their jobs, or not listening to them because they say something you don't like, is just evidence that people's attitudes have changed on this significantly.

There have been several reports about serious problems related to this in universities, anyone who doesn't believe it's an issue should try reading them.

tenredthings · 21/05/2021 03:19

Op, you seem to be in a unique, rare position in that you have managed to find a Brexit benefit. For the vast majority of the population the opposite is true and rights we've enjoyed like free movement have been taken away. I'd agree that life is becoming increasingly distopian as in 1984. We seemingly, as a society, accept and vote for a government that openly lies and gaslights us.

SmokedDuck · 21/05/2021 03:25

And the fact that this far along, some people who apparently have strong opinions of their own have not even bothered to look into why many others, including some very intelligent and educated people, might have voted leave, is really just evidence of why this sort of attitude is a problem, and how narrow minded people can be.

sbhydrogen · 21/05/2021 06:05

"We are so inclusive... Unless you think differently to us in which case you are Tory scum."

adeleh · 21/05/2021 10:16

@SmokedDuck

And the fact that this far along, some people who apparently have strong opinions of their own have not even bothered to look into why many others, including some very intelligent and educated people, might have voted leave, is really just evidence of why this sort of attitude is a problem, and how narrow minded people can be.
There may be some people who have never asked, but there are an awful lot of people who have been asking for five years and are still awaiting some kind of answer. I have either heard answers that don’t seem to be substantiated, such as the belief that the NHS will be better off or that we’ll get better deals, or people have gone very quiet and don’t want to say. I have asked as mildly as possible, because I genuinely am interested and, frankly, would be delighted to hear of some good that Brexit might bring. For me personally it has only brought loss.
Thatisnotwhatisaid · 21/05/2021 10:23

I thought this would be more about covid restrictions tbh. The Brexit thing literally tore families, friends and couples apart. People on both sides felt so strongly about it and often struggled to find a middle ground. I hated the whole situation, didn’t agree with the referendum in the first place. Witnessed people having physical fights shortly after the result outside bars. Shocking really.

If you were referring to the restrictions I’d have to agree. People have grassed their neighbours into the police for having their Mum around ffs.

FOJN · 21/05/2021 10:29

You are free to say what you want (so not censored) but not free from the consequences of saying it (so OK to have people calling for you to be sacked and then actually being sacked).

This is incredible disingenuous and things are worse than I thought if people really believe that the threat of losing your job for wrong think is not suppression of free speech. In this context, "free speech does not mean freedom from consequence" is quite chilling. Be careful what you wish for, one day people may feel emboldened to use your livelihood as leverage in depriving you of you right to speak.

Namechangeforobv · 21/05/2021 12:04

@PinkArt

OP was your deleted thread by any chance about Prince Harry? One that was deleted recently as 'not in the spirit' started with a very unpleasant post and continued in the same manner.
No, I've never really paid any attention to Harry.
OP posts:
Namechangeforobv · 21/05/2021 12:06

@FOJN

You are free to say what you want (so not censored) but not free from the consequences of saying it (so OK to have people calling for you to be sacked and then actually being sacked).

This is incredible disingenuous and things are worse than I thought if people really believe that the threat of losing your job for wrong think is not suppression of free speech. In this context, "free speech does not mean freedom from consequence" is quite chilling. Be careful what you wish for, one day people may feel emboldened to use your livelihood as leverage in depriving you of you right to speak.

I agree, quite chilling indeed.
OP posts:
Notthemessiah · 21/05/2021 12:29

@FOJN

You are free to say what you want (so not censored) but not free from the consequences of saying it (so OK to have people calling for you to be sacked and then actually being sacked).

This is incredible disingenuous and things are worse than I thought if people really believe that the threat of losing your job for wrong think is not suppression of free speech. In this context, "free speech does not mean freedom from consequence" is quite chilling. Be careful what you wish for, one day people may feel emboldened to use your livelihood as leverage in depriving you of you right to speak.

Why is it disengenous?

Do you genuinely believe that you should be able to express any opinion whatsoever, on any topic, without fear of any consequences?

Namechangeforobv · 21/05/2021 12:47

Opinions are not illegal nor are they physical so why must an opinion be met with a physical “punishment” such as a job loss. If there is no action why must there be a reaction, why we just respect another’s belief without adopting it and leave it there.

OP posts:
Namechangeforobv · 21/05/2021 12:47

Can’t*

OP posts:
ilovesooty · 21/05/2021 13:21

@Namechangeforobv

Opinions are not illegal nor are they physical so why must an opinion be met with a physical “punishment” such as a job loss. If there is no action why must there be a reaction, why we just respect another’s belief without adopting it and leave it there.
Because there are situations where expressing certain opinions has the capacity to bring your employer or company into disrepute.
Namechangeforobv · 21/05/2021 14:31

Of course especially if illegal activities etc, but people are being vilified for saying women have vaginas for example.

OP posts:
Newrumpus · 21/05/2021 19:29

Op, you seem to be in a unique, rare position in that you have managed to find a Brexit benefit. For the vast majority of the population the opposite is true

Really?

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