Sometimes I feel like this is George Orwell’s 1984

[Namechangeforobv]

Name change as my last thread attracted a lot of attention.
Anyway, am I the only one that feels like freedom of speech is slowly dying?!
If my opinion or views differ from the ‘woke’ then it is clearly not valid!

For example I voted to leave the EU, I chose this because leaving benefitted me more than staying. My personal circumstances, my personal choice.
Conversation starts at work about it, I was asked what I voted and immediately discussion closed because it was so “wrong” that I had voted this.

YABU for “no your wrong”
YANBU for “yes I agree”

Well, masked men physically preventing women from attending meetings because those women recognise the objective material reality of sexual dimorphism that pre-dates human beings is also pretty sinister. Wokeism is steeped in identity politics which places choice and feelings above oppressions based on realities such as race and class. It's most sinister aspect is its attempt to shut down any opposition or debate through intimidation, falsehood and hyperbole, the erasure of history, cancel culture and, most Orwellian of all, the denial that cancel culture even exists.

Such as these issues I mentioned on page 4.

These have been plucked from recent news topics

But what really is cancel culture other than deciding not to listen to other people's views that you find particularly objectionable and then trying to persuade others not to listen either?

Everyone has the right to speak - it doesn't mean you have the right to be heard.

Personally I would argue that we need to be more tolerant of other people's views, but you can't exactly force people to be tolerant (as that's kind of intolerant).

@daffodills78

Funny, I too feel that free speech is under threat, but not from the 'woke' but the new, vocal, intolerant conservatism (which isn't even really conservatism as we know it) and their supporters who actively vilify any opposition (the Jeremy Corbyn and Rebecca Long Bailey smear campaigns) or try to silence groups of people who campaign for equal rights such as BLM or environmental activists (see Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill), or try to restrict underprivileged groups' right to vote (photo ID being made compulsory to vote).

My values have always been aligned with the left but I didn't really engage in/follow politics until the Brexit vote which was the first jolt for me to this new reality, and then the 2019 general election and the Conservatives' brazen lies during their election campaign and their subsequent failures and messes, none of which appear to hurt them one bit, if anything the opposite. Since then a gradual chipping away at civil liberties, undermining the national, impartial broadcaster, and so on.

I was always friends with people who I knew were on the right on politics, socially etc, but didn't really speak up about my opinions, because I suppose I didn't feel my right to exist peacefully in this country (EU national) and express opinions as I saw fit was under threat! Silly me.

I'm not allowed to vote in general elections but expressed my support for the Labour party on social media leading up to the 2019 general election, and have posted quite a bit in support of BLM, about violence against women and girls, LGBT rights etc. I've been taken aback by the number of people who have since unfriended me or blocked me on social media or even complained about me in a professional setting when I expressed pro choice views on a social media chat. The same people who refer to millennials as 'snowflakes' and who wage war on the 'woke brigade' for apparently stifling free speech.

I have witnessed the discomfort and irritation of men when you bring up women's right to equal treatment (not being catcalled or harassed on the street, not being ridiculed or undermined in the workplace, not being subjected to everyday sexism), respect, equal pay and bodily autonomy (rape culture, reproductive rights). You get labelled as a troublemaker and a pain in the arse while the men remain the good guys.

It's not 'the woke' who are the threat to free speech.

I absolutely agree with this. Also, I work in a uni which is happy to invite speakers of all political persuasions. I work with extremely right-wing colleagues and, though I’m quite left wing, everybody just gets on with it. The idea that we are brainwashing students and only left wing views can be heard is absolute bollocks, voiced by people who really have v little idea of what goes on in a university. On the other hand I found Chris Heaton Harris’ demands to know what any academic might be saying about Brexit very sinister indeed. I note his book about it has still not been published.

@tttigress

Debates are being closed down on a number of topics.

To understand how the media works, understand what is not being covered on the news is probably more important than what is being covered.

Probably more important...that is the understatement of the generation. I would say media reporting is overwhelmingly a hodgepodge of gossip, half truths and outright lies. A farrago of nonsense. It is there to distract and confuse, not to inform or enlighten. Now they are crapping on about 'UFOs'. The most terrifying thing, is what are we not supposed to be noticing while we think about 'UFOs'?

I’m referring to things such as:

- censoring history - too vague, what history specifically?
- trans women participation in Olympics - you can protest against this. That’s not against free speech
- Facebook censorship - vague but also irrelevant, private company and like mumsnet can delete anything at all for any reason at all
- propaganda in the news - vague, what propaganda specifically?
- vaccine or no vaccine nobody can force anyone to vaccinate against their will.

Those kind of topics, even the Piers Morgan saga - I don’t know what the Piers Morgan saga is.

@Notthemessiah

But what really is cancel culture other than deciding not to listen to other people's views that you find particularly objectionable and then trying to persuade others not to listen either?

Everyone has the right to speak - it doesn't mean you have the right to be heard.

Personally I would argue that we need to be more tolerant of other people's views, but you can't exactly force people to be tolerant (as that's kind of intolerant).

I think cancel culture is a form of online bullying. Death threats are received due to someone’s opposing view, people losing their careers as they dared to go against the majority. Surely this can’t be okay?

There was a thread active this morning about Priti Patel.
She had gone to see a Police Operation against alleged people traffickers.
Which I would of thought was a neutral move for a Home Secretary. Some people reported the abuse that she was getting on Social Media.
Others approved of it because she is a Tory. Therefore they the Left must be allowed to be insulting and abusive.
That is shutting down critics not entering a debate.

@Pumperthepumper

I’m referring to things such as:

- censoring history - too vague, what history specifically?
- trans women participation in Olympics - you can protest against this. That’s not against free speech
- Facebook censorship - vague but also irrelevant, private company and like mumsnet can delete anything at all for any reason at all
- propaganda in the news - vague, what propaganda specifically?
- vaccine or no vaccine nobody can force anyone to vaccinate against their will.

Those kind of topics, even the Piers Morgan saga - I don’t know what the Piers Morgan saga is.

It’s not vague it’s a generalisation as I am not here to force any agenda. This is a discussion/debate.

The examples above are classic topics in which people do not accept others opinions.

The examples above are classic topics in which people do not accept others opinions.

But at no point are your opinions being censored - you’re equally free to make your own opinions. Whether or not you can be bothered is a different issue.

@Pumperthepumper

The examples above are classic topics in which people do not accept others opinions.

But at no point are your opinions being censored - you’re equally free to make your own opinions. Whether or not you can be bothered is a different issue.

As I should be equally free to express them without being called “right of the political spectrum” “ xenophobic” or “racist”. I also would appreciate them being left exactly where I put them as would you?

Death threats are never ok, but not so much part of cancel culture as they are seemingly part of online life (sadly).

I do think people deserve to have their careers ruined depending on the views they express. Presumably if someone came out in support of, say, rape being ok within a marriage, that you wouldn't argue for them keeping their job?

@Notthemessiah

Death threats are never ok, but not so much part of cancel culture as they are seemingly part of online life (sadly).

I do think people deserve to have their careers ruined depending on the views they express. Presumably if someone came out in support of, say, rape being ok within a marriage, that you wouldn't argue for them keeping their job?

So what are your thoughts on what happened to Sharon Osbourne?

As I should be equally free to express them without being called “right of the political spectrum” “ xenophobic” or “racist”. I also would appreciate them being left exactly where I put them as would you?

Well no, the right to free speech has never, ever meant you can say whatever you like with no consequences. So if it’s your right to say something racist, it’s equally someone else’s right to call you racist.

I also would appreciate them being left exactly where I put them as would you? I don’t know what this means.

@Pumperthepumper

As I should be equally free to express them without being called “right of the political spectrum” “ xenophobic” or “racist”. I also would appreciate them being left exactly where I put them as would you?

Well no, the right to free speech has never, ever meant you can say whatever you like with no consequences. So if it’s your right to say something racist, it’s equally someone else’s right to call you racist.

I also would appreciate them being left exactly where I put them as would you? I don’t know what this means.

It means.... not deleted!

The right of my free speech should be treated respectfully though, as I would anyone else’s. Being called xenophobic is unwarranted. Also, I haven’t said anything remotely racist but have still been called that.

So what are your thoughts on what happened to Sharon Osbourne?

You answer my question first and I'll answer yours.

Well, masked men physically preventing women from attending meetings because those women recognise the objective material reality of sexual dimorphism that pre-dates human beings is also pretty sinister. Wokeism is steeped in identity politics which places choice and feelings above oppressions based on realities such as race and class. It's most sinister aspect is its attempt to shut down any opposition or debate through intimidation, falsehood and hyperbole, the erasure of history, cancel culture and, most Orwellian of all, the denial that cancel culture even exists.

It's hard to know where to start with this...you sound a bit unhinged if I'm honest. What does this even mean: which places choice and feelings above oppressions based on realities such as race and class

And shutting down any opposition or debate through intimidation, falsehood and hyperbole is surely straight out of your Prime Minister's rulebook?

And if by 'erasure of history' you mean reevaluating problematic historical figures that is not erasing anything but looking at the whole picture, not just the part you want to see.

P.S. Repeating 'Orwellian' in your every post doesn't make you sound any more clever.

@Notthemessiah

Death threats are never ok, but not so much part of cancel culture as they are seemingly part of online life (sadly).

I do think people deserve to have their careers ruined depending on the views they express. Presumably if someone came out in support of, say, rape being ok within a marriage, that you wouldn't argue for them keeping their job?

So if someone expresses a view that you don’t approve of, loses their job and is unemployable because of it should they have a life without ever having to work again or do you think they should be shunned and left to starve or beg?

The right of my free speech should be treated respectfully though, as I would anyone else’s. Being called xenophobic is unwarranted. Also, I haven’t said anything remotely racist but have still been called that.

I doubt you treat every opinion you hear respectfully though. If one of your colleagues was racist you’d probably call them out on it. If someone though pedophilia was fine, you’d probably be disgusted.

It seems to me that what you want is unchallenged views on the internet, and I think that’s pretty unlikely. Unlikely, and also not against your freedom of speech.

Again: mumsnet, being a private company, can delete for any reason at all they like. Anything. That’s not against your free speech, that’s their right as a host.

@Notthemessiah

Death threats are never ok, but not so much part of cancel culture as they are seemingly part of online life (sadly).

I do think people deserve to have their careers ruined depending on the views they express. Presumably if someone came out in support of, say, rape being ok within a marriage, that you wouldn't argue for them keeping their job?

I think using something illegal as a comparative is wrong. Especially something as extreme as rape. People are losing their jobs for things due to an opinion that is NOT illegal.

@Namechangeforobv

I said Brexit benefitted me personally, this is not something that should be questioned or discussed to be honest as it’s private information. I’m guessing I’m being questioned as you can’t possibly fathom leaving as being a good thing in your opinion?

I'm late to the party but I would have liked to hear you out. Reason being, I have heard some dreadfully ill-informed motives (sending Muslims back to 'where they came from' being one of them) and I would find it refreshing to hear an educated, well-considered opinion.

Yes, totally agree. But wtf is it happening all of a sudden?! I genuinely worry for my toddler DD’s future, the world is heading in a strange direction.

@Pumperthepumper

The right of my free speech should be treated respectfully though, as I would anyone else’s. Being called xenophobic is unwarranted. Also, I haven’t said anything remotely racist but have still been called that.

I doubt you treat every opinion you hear respectfully though. If one of your colleagues was racist you’d probably call them out on it. If someone though pedophilia was fine, you’d probably be disgusted.

It seems to me that what you want is unchallenged views on the internet, and I think that’s pretty unlikely. Unlikely, and also not against your freedom of speech.

Again: mumsnet, being a private company, can delete for any reason at all they like. Anything. That’s not against your free speech, that’s their right as a host.

Of course, I would tell them I don’t agree with their opinion! Doesn’t mean I would tell them they can’t have their opinion.

Unchallenged views on the internet? The whole point of this thread is to challenge views and partake in debate.

Of course, I would tell them I don’t agree with their opinion! Doesn’t mean I would tell them they can’t have their opinion.

You keep changing your mind about what you mean - who is telling you you can’t have your opinion?

Unchallenged views on the internet? The whole point of this thread is to challenge views and partake in debate. - I thought this thread was to highlight how we’re living according to Orwell’s 1984?

I'm also interested in the accusation of 'woke' propaganda in the news in the largely Murdoch owned right-wing media which regularly spouts vile anti-immigrant, flag-waving propaganda and starts invented culture wars (the Rule, Britannia row, anyone?).