Sometimes I feel like this is George Orwell’s 1984

[Namechangeforobv]

Name change as my last thread attracted a lot of attention.
Anyway, am I the only one that feels like freedom of speech is slowly dying?!
If my opinion or views differ from the ‘woke’ then it is clearly not valid!

For example I voted to leave the EU, I chose this because leaving benefitted me more than staying. My personal circumstances, my personal choice.
Conversation starts at work about it, I was asked what I voted and immediately discussion closed because it was so “wrong” that I had voted this.

YABU for “no your wrong”
YANBU for “yes I agree”

@daffodills78

EsmaCannonball

You can't understand why descendants of slaves have a problem with statues of slave traders and white supremacists?

Let's have a 'reasoned' discussion about that then.

I was talking about the Orwellian constantly shifting and reframing nature of the arguments, e.g. if Person A wants to tear down a statue and Person B objects to that, Person A (someone who literally wants to physically tear it down) shifts the argument to accuse Person B of being someone obsessed with statues rather than more important things.

@GnomeOrMistAndIceGuy

because of her views on trans people. No *@Bibidy* NOT her "views on Trans people." It was the fact she said and continues to say that biological sex is real and important.

Well whatever, you know what I meant .

She is now on the receiving end of the vitriol she was happy to be a part of against others when it aligned with her views. Now, because of what others perceive to be her views on the fashionable issue of trans people and gender identity, she has joined the crowd of people who are "cancelled" by much of that same crowd.

As I said, I am a supporter of JK and certainly am on her views on biological sex, but my point was that there is very definitely an "allowed" attitude on most topics now and it doesn't take much for people to be vilified for not immediately agreeing with that point of view.

@KrisAkabusi

What actually prompted by post was me being silenced (post deleted) for having different views to others. Surely this shouldn’t be allowed to happen? Especially as there was no malice. It was simply a different view that was not shared

You have the right to say what you want. Mumsnet has the right not to let you say it on their platform. It's a private company, not the government. Their platform, their rules.

Exactly. Not 'in the spirit' is something MNHQ has the right to decide. It's not necessarily deleting someone because they hold certain views.

After all, this thread is still standing.

@LakieLady

When did I get the hump?! I just don’t think I have to explain myself as to why I voted leave for my reason to then be discredited or belittled because you may not agree

But then you're the one shutting down discussion, not the "woke" remainers!

Discussion is a two-way thing, it requires both (or all) parties to participate. Have the courage of your convictions, ffs.

I never called remainers “woke”. I also explained my use of the word “woke”. Stop inciting. I also have a right to not want to discuss the choice to vote leave. I get this isn’t acceptable if I am asking others what their choice to vote remain was but I am simply talking about free speech or lack of. Not specifically Brexit.

• much of that same crowd that she considered herself a part of previously.

Are apostrophes considered woke, OP?

Stop inciting what?

I don't remember your previous thread, but I'm pretty sure that something can be deemed 'not in the spirit' not necessarily by its content but because of the way that content is conveyed.

[quote EYProvider]@Sunflowers095

You are so bigoted and immature. You actually believe you can get the measure of a person based on where they live and how old they are?

Nobody likes being sneered at, Sunflowers. Especially by people who think they are superior because they are younger, ‘better educated’ and live in London or Scotland (or wherever).

Grow up.[/quote]
Calm down. I don't live in London but my point was that multi cultural locations like London are obviously going to have a different outlook on foreigners (yet people who haven't lived around other cultures will vote against this, despite not having this experience).

Same goes for younger generations who are more likely to experience a multi cultural environment vs older generations (because of how the ease of travel & immigration has changed).

Critical thinking doesn't make me immature or bigoted, it's funny you're offended though as you know what they say - if the shoe fits...

@ilovesooty

I don't remember your previous thread, but I'm pretty sure that something can be deemed 'not in the spirit' not necessarily by its content but because of the way that content is conveyed.

I think it was shut down due to people becoming quite nasty in the comments. Not me by the way!

@ilovesooty

Stop inciting what?

In other words.... sh*t stirring

@user1471453601

You have a right, of course, to your opinion.

The thing that stands out in your post to me, is the fact that the decision YOU made was because it benefited you and your current circumstances.

You appear to have no consideration for society as a whole,independently of what benefits you.

Is that a true reflection of your feelings?

If so, do you feel others should be free to behave in similar way? So,for example,I want what you have (your money, your home, your children, your paartner). Wouldn't I be equally justified in just taking those things?

If you think I shouldn't do that, shouldn't you consider the impact of your vote to leave on others, who unlike you,may not "benefit" leaving the EU?

If you think I would be justified in taking things from you that I would like, please pm your address and let me know when you will be out.

What an infantile comparison.

There was a democratic vote on remaining or leaving the EU, it was a simple straightforward yes/no referendum. People answered that simple binary question and Parliament agreed to abide by the result of the referendum whichever way it went.

There has been no vote on helping yourself to the OP's (or anyone else's) money, home, children or partner.

If that's the best you can do you need to go back to the drawing board.

Yanbu.

We're rapidly losing the art of debate in this country. I think that's bad as people go underground with their views and that can be dangerous.

😂

That's it exactly tbh, I think lots of people will end up in the same position as her - and w'ere already starting to see it - because despite being vocal supporters of some of the more 'acceptable' viewpoints, they can put one toe out of line on one of the others and that's it for them.

@Bibidy I agree. Shouting people down and hounding people out because they have opposing views gets us nowhere. Just a case of who's the morally superior. I honestly can't sympathise with someone who receives the same thing they give to others but I'm quite surprised that JKR did this too. Just goes to show some perspective really.

This isn't to say that death and rape threats are ever okay. That's beyond crossing the line and people who do this should be arrested and prosecuted imo.

@GroggyLegs

I feel like critical thought is dying.

I feel people are being forced to be performative - to prove the commitment to their beliefs for approval, rather than just being able to live by our own moral compass.

I feel we're getting more & more tribal, so if you don't agree on one point, you're out the tribe. Dissent to the group think will not be tolerated.

Personally, I think it's all shit and I'll end up an old lady in prison for not clapping or something.

I agree with all of this!

@flowerycurtain

Yanbu.

We're rapidly losing the art of debate in this country. I think that's bad as people go underground with their views and that can be dangerous.

The thing is no so long ago, Remainers were told to shut up, stop moaning etc..... by people who voted leave. Because You know ‘we won, you lost. Get over it’

So I’m finding a bit rich to see leavers unhappy when they receive the same treatment.

@DreamingNow both are in the wrong. Nobody should have been knocking anyone else’s views down ( other than in healthy debate rather than the constant rudeness/bullying I saw at the time ) and no one should‘ve been lauding it up over anyone else after the result. I think the art of debate is getting killed off and now it’s fine to just be completely insulting of other people’s opinions ( or they aren’t allowed to have an opinion)

but I am simply talking about free speech or lack of. Not specifically Brexit.

Brexit is as good of an example as others.
When one group is trying to impose one view on others, it’s likely the other group is going to respond in kind.
That’s when you start having those white and black thinking emerging on subjects that are. actually shades of grey.
Brexit was wiped up to bring people against each other and impose one view point wo discussion.

The trans debate can be along those lines too.

Every side basking in identity politics so they can pull the blanket towards them.
I personally blame a lot of that on newspapers/tv. And the fact people learn about the world through memes inside their SM bubble.

[quote Rubyreddiamond]@DreamingNow both are in the wrong. Nobody should have been knocking anyone else’s views down ( other than in healthy debate rather than the constant rudeness/bullying I saw at the time ) and no one should‘ve been lauding it up over anyone else after the result. I think the art of debate is getting killed off and now it’s fine to just be completely insulting of other people’s opinions ( or they aren’t allowed to have an opinion)[/quote]
Couldn’t agree more

@Rubyreddiamond, I agree.
But I have found few people actually ready to listen
I mean I have been told that my experience was wrong and didn’t happen!

Yes, it's very concerning.

The element in universities I thin is in some ways at the centre of it, because that's meant to be protected as a place where academics can talk about all kinds of things - that's the whole point of tenure!

When you have speakers being disinvited, people like Germain Greer or Adolph Reed, serious scholars who have views that some consider controversial, because university students can't handle it, that's a problem. When teachers are reprimanded for showing debates in the classroom, when students are shut down for making an argument others find uncomfortable. We've lost the plot.

Similarly when people in their jobs are being fired because of things they say outside the job, or even just being known to have a differing opinion about something. That's a very powerful way to control speech and public discourse because people have to work.

And even the stuff about online platforms - the amount of power they potentially now have is really quite scary. There are good reasons the traditional media have special rules around how they work, and a lot of online services should be treated similarly.

*EsmaCannonball"

OK, you've given one example of why you find 'wokeism' sinister. Can you define your understanding of 'wokeism' and other reasons why you find it sinister?

Cannot bear all this rectum flapping of people talking utter shit and then bleating about 'freedom of speech' when they are shut down.

They aren't shut down because of no freedom of speech. They are shut down because they talk rubbish.

Freedom of speech means you can say it but don't be surprised when people react to your nonsense and burn it.

This^

If you write your when it should've been you're, then yabu.