One at Uni, one at work…

[BelleClapper]

How do you square this without causing resentment?

Dd (17) is working full time on an apprenticeship course. We are charging her rent/keep/petrol equivalent to 25% of her take home.

DS (18) up until now was planning to leave college and get a job. He announced yesterday that he is now accepting the three University offers he got a while back. As an aside he’s just split up with his GF of two years who was absolutely definitely in no way the reason he wasn’t going…

So we will be in a position of taking money from DD and sending money to DS. Which has totally changed the dynamic. I’m really conscious of causing resentment from DD who already suffers a bit with middle child syndrome and jealousy.

If you’ve been in this situation what did you do? I want DD to contribute for lots of reasons, none of which go away just because DS now needs three more years of support.

I can't believe that two siblings who are in education or training are being treated so unequally

Because their situations are different. The Ops son will most likely leave Uni with a minimum £27k debt (if he does a 3 year course). The Ops daughter will have no debt. Should the Op pay off the son's debt, so that they are both even? Even, in so much as both children have no debt. But wait...then Op will have given her DS £27k and not given her DD a lump sum. How do you square that circle?

OP, you wouldn't have asked how to avoid resentment unless you were aware there was a good chance you were going to cause resentment.

Bit much to complain that anyone who says there will be resentment is unreasonable, don't you think?

OP I love how you keep quoting people who agree with you and saying that's helped you "reframe it" etc

I think £200 a month, plus petrol, is a lot at 17. I get you're trying to teach her responsibility but why not encourage her to save instead of doing it for her? And given you've noted the high cost of your mortgage and bills, and that "ideally" you'll save, you're probably not actually saving for her.

Your children have both chosen further education, your daughter has chosen something where she can earn while she learns, your son has chosen something expensive. It just doesn't seem fair to me that she has to pay because of that whereas he gets money. Fair enough if you couldn't support him financially, that would be one thing. But with your proposed set up she is essentially paying towards her brother choosing to do an expensive degree.

I don't think petrol money is a problem but I think the keep is because it's so unbalanced. Yes a shared room would be more expensive but she's 17, not 23.

I think you should base it on whether you actually need a contribution from her or not.

If you don't need it, then don't charge her. When your son is working, if either of them are living at home then they can pay. But until they are both in jobs, don't charge them unless you are actually in need of the money.

Anything else just leads to weird dynamics.

Ok so a few things.

DD is working full time, earning a full time salary. She is also earning a qualification. She’s not on a reduced salary or part time.

DH and I drive her to and from work, 10hrs driving a week, actual petrol costs c£100.

Either DH or I cook a proper dinner every evening. We have a once a week takeaway that we pay for for everybody.

I pay for her phone because it’s all on my contract. We have high speed internet, full sky tv package, Netflix, Amazon prime.

She has a large double bedroom and shares a bathroom with her siblings. Regularly entertains her friends here. Will be walking around with the best part of £750pm.

DS will be (hopefully) going away to Uni potentially six hrs away. He’ll be in halls, so a single room with shared facilities. He’ll be studying full time. No luxury tv packages, no home cooked meals, or free takeaways, money will be tight.

I’ve thought it through and DD has by far the better deal!

How about charging her but keeping it aside in a bank account so you can gift it back to her when she's older and moving out.

The arguement of what your dd is saving by living at home might not make her feel better if she is comparing herself to her brother.
They are so close in age and she is still in education though done through her work.
I think 25% is high and I would suggest this reduced to 15%. If you want charge higher, the option of most of the money going into savings for her is good. Though I would discuss this with her and her her buyin. Otherwise this can cause longterm resentment between your dd & you and also your dd & ds.
The wage potential in both career routes they are taking, is important.
I went to college for 3 years at the same time my younger sibling (by 18 months) started working. I worked hard during the summer before college to have the money I needed for during the college terms. I also then worked Saturdays & Sundays. I lived at home but contributed towards my keep, though a lesser amount than my sibling. Also, my parents did help me out with some college costs.

When I graduated, the job I obtained had a higher salary than my sibling and my keep increased.
I thought this was fair and i definitely would not have wanted to be getting help from parents while my sibling was paying 25%.
We were both aware of the reasons for our keep costs. Then when our younger siblings were going to college / starting work, these changed slightly to suit their & family circumstances but it was always seen as being fair by everyone.

My oldest is back working from home because of Covid & we are not charging her rent or bills, even though she has a well paid job. The reason is to enable her to save for a deposit on a flat, which she is doing. We don't need the money and the property ladder is so ridiculous for young people to get a toe hold on due to intergenerational unfairness. I want to help my children up, not take money from them I don't really need.

We are in a similar situation with the eldest 3 all doing something different and it's a difficult tightrope to walk.

I'm coming back later to read this thread thoroughly.

Just because my 19 year old didn't go to college or uni doesn't mean she never will, or in fact may do some professional qualifications that she has to pay for and at that point we will help financially.

The national minimum wage for an apprentice is £4.30 - DD is clearly getting more than this if she brings home £12k a year! She isn't scratching about on pennies. Good on her - but given her petrol costs are £100 pm and her parents drive her - good on them! - she is really doing quite well out of this.

The fact he will be in debt at the end of his degree isn't really relevant. He's chosen to do a degree, his sister hasn't. Why should she essentially pay towards his choice? You decide to do a degree, you take on debt. Whether his sister is getting into debt for her education is a red herring that shouldn't factor into decision making. It's not unfair on him that his choice gets him into debt and his sisters choice doesn't. It is unfair on her if she is expected to pay out because its unfair her brother will be in debt and she won't.

She's not being given 12k a year. She's EARNING it. Her brother is being given money.

YANBU.

On £12k she won’t be paying tax and only a tiny amount of NI, so she is taking home almost £1k/month. After 25% board she is left with £750 per month!

My household income is over 100k per year. A spare £750/month after bills and very necessary savings would be an absolute dream for me!

Still plenty there for her to have a lovely lifestyle and save for a e.g.car. And she’s learning that nothing in life comes for free.

Does she have a pension OP? I’d really encourage her to put at least 5% into that. If only I’d started at her age! To try and teach my DC good habits I make them save 20% of their (£1!) pocket money in their ‘pension’. They are 9 and 6.

I wouldn't take money from an apprentice but would put that money into an account for when she leaves home/goes to university

I had the same type of issue with my siblings growing up. I chose to go to university which my parents helped to fund, they chose to work and stay at home and had to pay rent.
At the time I didn't even think about it, as it was my parents decision but if we argue it is routinely thrown in my face that I'm the favourite and that I had it easier than they did. Looking back, I can see why they might feel that way and it does bother me that they feel they got an unfair deal.
Theybdo forget other loans (that were never paid back) etc.
I don't think you can expect one to pay and fund the other, unless you explain the money given to the one going to uni is a loan, and you expect it back or that the other is for savings and she'll get it back.
Alternatively, you say if your in full time education you will find, but tbh an apprenticeship is education and she isn't getting a full salary so you are in an awkward position.

Ah, I’ve just read your update. Her deal is even better than I thought! She’ll never move out at this rate!
OP I think you’re being equally generous and fair and making her take on financial responsibilities is good for her.

@Bluedeblue

I can't believe that two siblings who are in education or training are being treated so unequally

Because their situations are different. The Ops son will most likely leave Uni with a minimum £27k debt (if he does a 3 year course). The Ops daughter will have no debt. Should the Op pay off the son's debt, so that they are both even? Even, in so much as both children have no debt. But wait...then Op will have given her DS £27k and not given her DD a lump sum. How do you square that circle?

I think this is the fundamental divide, which is why people disagree so much on this - whether you're trying to give to them equally or to give them equal outcomes. My parents gave according to need - so I was supported through uni, a masters and they paid my first rent deposit; my brother lived at home rent-free for years, they put a lot of money in when he started his own business and I think they may still give him some financial support now. To me this seems appropriate and fair, even if the amounts don't even out exactly, but in other families it would be outrageous because the key thing is that the parents give exactly the same amount of money to each. That would have left me unable to eat at university and my brother unable to start a business (or would have involved giving us each random cash lump sums), which seems nonsensical to me.

People are talking like going to university to do a degree is a bad thing?

I have twins, one at uni, one working. We don't charge the working one as we are supporting her sister through uni and it doesn't seem fair. She does buy the odd meal/bottle of wine/takeaway, but it wouldn't feel right to charge her rent at the moment. That will change when her sister gets a full time job.

Oh and remind your dd that at some point she might decide she wants to go to university, lots go much later these days

@UhtredRagnarson

I think you should provide them with the same. So if you’re covering DS’s accommodation then you shouldn’t be charging DD for hers. If you’re covering his food costs then you shouldn’t be charging DD for hers.

This.

If you want to treat them equally then the way to do it.

I agree with a pp that you're taking money from DD with one hand and giving it to DS with the other otherwise.

@Comefromaway

People are talking like going to university to do a degree is a bad thing?

They really are. You'd think that the DS had announced he was becoming a drug dealer and the OP was giving him seed money for it from the way people are talking! There's a weird resentment of the idea that the DS will have things 'easy' by going to university.

@BelleClapper

Ok so a few things.

DD is working full time, earning a full time salary. She is also earning a qualification. She’s not on a reduced salary or part time.

DH and I drive her to and from work, 10hrs driving a week, actual petrol costs c£100.

Either DH or I cook a proper dinner every evening. We have a once a week takeaway that we pay for for everybody.

I pay for her phone because it’s all on my contract. We have high speed internet, full sky tv package, Netflix, Amazon prime.

She has a large double bedroom and shares a bathroom with her siblings. Regularly entertains her friends here. Will be walking around with the best part of £750pm.

DS will be (hopefully) going away to Uni potentially six hrs away. He’ll be in halls, so a single room with shared facilities. He’ll be studying full time. No luxury tv packages, no home cooked meals, or free takeaways, money will be tight.

I’ve thought it through and DD has by far the better deal!

Ok but what's your point?

Once your children reach adulthood they are really making their own decisions and you can no longer enforce equality between them.

Do you think she needs to learn something? Is she immature or irresponsible with her money? Do you think she'll struggle in future if you don't teach her what the world is like by starting to charge her rent?

If she's a mature, sensible young adult then I just don't know why you would take money from her if you don't actually need the contribution.

@BelleClapper

Ok so a few things.

DD is working full time, earning a full time salary. She is also earning a qualification. She’s not on a reduced salary or part time.

DH and I drive her to and from work, 10hrs driving a week, actual petrol costs c£100.

Either DH or I cook a proper dinner every evening. We have a once a week takeaway that we pay for for everybody.

I pay for her phone because it’s all on my contract. We have high speed internet, full sky tv package, Netflix, Amazon prime.

She has a large double bedroom and shares a bathroom with her siblings. Regularly entertains her friends here. Will be walking around with the best part of £750pm.

DS will be (hopefully) going away to Uni potentially six hrs away. He’ll be in halls, so a single room with shared facilities. He’ll be studying full time. No luxury tv packages, no home cooked meals, or free takeaways, money will be tight.

I’ve thought it through and DD has by far the better deal!

Do you worry you're spoiling her, OP? Would you consider asking her to move out?

When my eldest started at uni we were both working full time so he only qualified for approx 5k maintenance loan. His uni halls were 6.5k and we were expected to make up the difference and help out with living costs to top up his part time job.

By the time my second went (older one was in 2nd yr) we were both retired and on a much lower income so they each qualified for the full 9k loan, they both had part time jobs and managed without any topping up from us.

They are both adults, they understand that circumstances aren't the same. When my oldest finishes uni next month and gets a job he will be expected to pay his share of household costs, the younger one won't until he finishes and is also working. He doesn't feel hard done to because we gave money to his brother for a year. The older one won't feel aggrieved because he's contributing and his brother won't be.

However, I've always told them that they have to contribute when they are working, it's not a surprise to them and they fully understand the cost of running a home will be part of their responsibility as well as paying for their own lifestyle.

I see nothing wrong with the op's scenario.

People don't seem to be doing this for DS, going to uni. I mean, it would be possible for him to go out to work and earn his uni fees first but (quite rightly) no one is comparing his situation to how he'd have to cope if he was an independent adult with no parents to rely on.

He'd actually be a lot better off if he were being assessed as an independent adult as he'd get the full maintenance loan.