Admitted to hospital for covid but refused the vaccine

[MakeMineALarge1]

So it has just been on my local news that there are 19 people in hospitlal with covid and all of them had not taken up their offer of a vaccine.

This makes me angry, you refuse the vaccine but you'll accept hospital care, why?

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I’m not sure that is accurate reporting. I know many people thechnically “offered” the vaccine but cannot find a vaccine hub close enough for them, to get to, with appointments that work around working hours. Or that are booked up because they keep flooding the system with lower age a groups.

[ddl1]

I think it's absolutely foolish for anyone who can have the vaccine to refuse, but they should not be refused treatment. Apart from being wrong in itself, that could be a very slippery slope to refusing treatment to people who fail or refuse to take any prescribed medication or disobey any sort of medical advice.

Also from a more pragmatic point of view, refusing them hospital admission would risk not only their own lives, but those of their family members and anyone else with whom they're in contact. Yes, they could also be a risk to others in hospital, but they can be kept in isolation there, and most hospital staff will have been fully vaccinated.

In the UK, most people do accept vaccination, and the publicity given to the fact that most people in hospital with Covid had refused the vaccination is likely to induce more people to get vaccinated.

[ddl1]

'Offered' could mean many different things - a text to an old mobile or email account. Lack of transport to where the vaccinations are being done may mean people can't go - some surgeries in my county do it, most must go to another county - if you can't drive then you must catch a bus for two hours or pay privately for a taxi.

Good points. The first nearly happened to me - the text was sent to an old mobile account; fortunately my neighbours in the same vaccine priority group and using the same GP practice told me they'd just got their invitation, so I checked with the surgery, and I had my first jab and am getting my second one next week. But a more isolated person might not have got it. So it isn't always a case of people just refusing.

[TheDailyCarbunkle]

[quote MyDcAreMarvel]**@TheDailyCarbunkle* I haven't taken up my vaccine because a healthy young friend of mine had the AZ vaccine and was dead from catastrophic blood clots 10 days later*
So you have never and never will use the contraceptive pill, or have a baby? Because those things will be more likely to give you a blood clot. You are also even if young more likely to have serious side affects from Covid than the vaccine.
Also there are other vaccines available.[/quote]
I have and never will use the contraceptive pill. I think future generations will look back on the pill as something that advanced society but damaged women's health. There's no way I would ever take it.

I have had two babies. However, having a baby has never once ever caused the types of blood clots that the AZ vaccine cause which is clotting combined by thrombocytopenia - essentially a complete collapse of the body's ability to regulate the blood system. As you can imagine it's a hideous condition to contend with and has a massive fatality rate - around 19% (bearing in mind that the fatality rate for covid for under 50s is under 1%.

The vaccine in general is a good thing, but pretending there are no risks associated is pointless.

[Maavay]

If any of those 19 currently hospitalized with the Indian variant were in India when offered the vaccine (I know that many people go back to their homeland for an extended period of time), then how could they have taken up the offer of the vaccine from there? Also, many posters have suggested perfectly legitimate reasons as to why someone may not accept the vaccine offer, it isn't refusal the way Hancock would have you believe. I think we should give people the benefit of the doubt and I for one expected the government to to defect blame for their fuck-up on closing the borders too late. Scapegoating the bame community for the spread of the virus is nothing new for the Tories. It's happened time and time again during this pandemic.

[SomeKindOfFloppyWeirdo]

Relevant Twitter thread from Professor Christina Pagel

mobile.twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1394956770485882882

“First off, the data just don't support vaccine hesitancy as reason for spread.”

[Strikethrough]

95% of over 50s have had their vaccination. This is far, far higher than anyone (scientists, behavioural experts, government) expected or hoped for (and much higher than is thought to be required for herd immunity for coronavirus, which would be around 65-70% I believe).

[Strikethrough]

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/19/stop-blaming-vaccine-hesitancy-for-spread-of-india-covid-variant-says-council-leader?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[Strikethrough]

Not everyone who hasn't had a jab will have "refused" it, they may be unable to have it for medical reasons or unable to access a vaccination hub (work schedules, caring responsibilities, language barrier, lack of transport/money to pay for travel).

[Strikethrough]

Or they may not be registered with a GP and unsure how to access a jab without that (or unaware that's a possibility).

[Gwenhwyfar]

@Strikethrough

Or they may not be registered with a GP and unsure how to access a jab without that (or unaware that's a possibility).

I can understand young people not being registered with a GP, but the old and vulnerable?

[Gwenhwyfar]

@Strikethrough

95% of over 50s have had their vaccination. This is far, far higher than anyone (scientists, behavioural experts, government) expected or hoped for (and much higher than is thought to be required for herd immunity for coronavirus, which would be around 65-70% I believe).

Yes, but herd immunity is 65-70% of the whole population, not of the over 50s.
Also, the 95% is overall and not just for Bolton where it could be lower.
Apparently, they're queuing up now though.

[gingganggooleywotsit]

It is an absolutely ridiculous attitude, I really fail to understand people like this.

[Nodal]

I agree with you. Hopefully they will survive and realise how foolish they have been.

[Becca19962014]

@Gwenhwyfar I'm in the vulnerable category, all acre stopped fourteen months ago which would have meant I was deregistered two month ago; despite being on daily prescription collection it's being seen that counts. I was told at my last appointment it was too dangerous for me to be seen (there were two cases in my county at this point) and wait until they contacted me to go in only except in an emergency, for which they refused me any help. Now I'm too disabled to get to my GP.

I'm not alone in having been frightened in this way by a Dr. There's a lot of people who were told this and would be scared to go back. Vaccines can't be done from a safe distance - this GP was over four metres away yet claimed it was too dangerous. When I suffered my injury they refused to examine me because it was again too dangerous.

I can see why elderly and vulnerable people may have lost their GP during all of this.

[Becca19962014]

Acre = care (suppose I should be grateful autocorrect got the letters right!)

[ddl1]

In all honesty, I DO think that if you are casual about your personal health, then you don't deserve to benefit from the newest treatment methods. If you get them regardless, it's as a guinea pig for the benefit of others who come later. I am not suggesting that people with congenital or chronic conditions should be disadvantaged in their access to the latest and best.

That's a horrible thing to say. Access to medical treatment is a right, not a reward. And how can you always disentangle 'casualness' about health from chronic or even congenital conditions (there are genetic factors in alcoholism, for example.)

[wonderstuff]

What a ridiculous thing to say.
The spin on this is unbelievable.

Government fails to control borders and predictably a more virulent strain seeds in parts of the UK
Government fails to adequately implement track and trace, even though they know people can't afford to isolate they're refusing to support them, predictably virus continues to spread, particularly in poor areas.

But obviously we should be finger pointing at a few poor souls who haven't come forward for vaccination rather than any government failure.

Vaccine take up is very high, it's never ever going to be 100%.

[mumwon]

people can get covid & assume they don't need the vaccine (Because they know better or follow Joe Bloggs down the road who is an expert - emoji raised eye brows)
Because they are frightened of having AZ due to the scare tactics on the internet.
Because as a migrant worker they may not be entitled (or are afraid of being sent out of the country)
They have certain illnesses that cause blood clots & the stories on the web have frightened them
etc
because they moved & don't have a gp yet so are not on the list
Misinformation is rife

[Mashagirl93]

I'm not being funny but there's a big difference between accepting hospital care and refusing a vaccine that people are clearly paranoid about taking due to blood clots and other complications it can cause. Everyone is entitled to hospital care. It's your choice if you want to vaccinate yourself or not. Leave people alone you don't know their personal story or journey.

[Test148]

Ah, this reminds me of a poster on MN who told me they hoped my Gran would be refused hospital care if she caught Covid when I said my Gran wasn’t worried about catching Covid in her care home because she wanted to die anyway.

As it happens, she did catch it and died quite happily with no hospital care but doesn’t mean she shouldn’t have be entitled to it had she wanted it.

Anyway, I’m derailing the thread. As you were!

[hp92]

I don't think anyone who is not a qualified medical professional should really be persuading anyone to get it or not.

[BlueBlancmange]

@TheDailyCarbunkle

The vaccine in general is a good thing, but pretending there are no risks associated is pointless.

How come you are so concerned about the very small risk associated with the vaccine, and yet have been downplaying the far greater risks associated with Covid for months?

[TheDailyCarbunkle]

[quote BlueBlancmange]@TheDailyCarbunkle

The vaccine in general is a good thing, but pretending there are no risks associated is pointless.

How come you are so concerned about the very small risk associated with the vaccine, and yet have been downplaying the far greater risks associated with Covid for months?[/quote]
That's actually a very sensible question @BlancBlancmange but the fact you have to ask it illustrates the whole problem with this situation.

Say there's a dangerous cliff walk. It's your choice to go on it and it's no one else's responsibility. Authorities may put up signs and warnings but they don't prevent you from going on the walk - there's a danger you might get hurt/die but that your choice and they trust you take enough precautions to protect yourself ie they don't police your life choices and treat you like a child.

However, say I build a building and invite people in. I'm rightly not allowed to do that unless the building meets certain regulations and is safe. I certainly can't tell people it's safe when I don't know if that's true - it's my responsibility to ensure people don't get hurt and if they do, it's my fault. In fact, it's a crime to create something that puts people in danger - a building, a food, a substance that I inject them with. The last example is called poisoning.

Do you see the difference? A virus out in the world creates danger that people can choose to protect themselves for or not - unless a government forces 'protection' on them that destroys lives and leaves our children with a bombed out economy.

Injecting people with something requires that you know it's safe, otherwise you're potentially poisoning them. That's not just a danger in the world, that's a danger created by the choices of others. If you then scare people into being injected in spite of the uncertainty around safety, there is a further level of duping people into putting their own lives in danger.

Thousands of dangers exist in the world - viruses of all sorts, weather, potential for accidents, etc. No one can protect you from them all. And protecting yourself by destroying your life and the lives of others can't be described as anything but stupid. But, if you go to that extreme to 'stay safe' and then roll up your sleeve happily to be injected with something with minimal testing so that you have no idea of the long term effects, what was the point? You've just traded one danger for another. You may avoid covid now, but what if in a few years time it comes out that these vaccines are linked with a greater incidence of autoimmune disorders? Or 50% of AZ recipients have a stroke after 5 years? What then? What'll you do to 'stay safe'? Well, nothing because it'll be too late. You'll just have to sit tight and wait to see if you're a victim.

[Heneage]

There are dozens of boy racers in a town near me. One span off the road recently and 19 "audience" members - who chose to stand and watch a fool and his car driving dangerously- needed hospital treatment as did he. Who should be prioritised for treatment? Him? Them? Someone with covid who chose not to have the vaccine, a mother of four? Someone with covid who is 90?
Medical decisions are horrendously complex and emotional and I thank god I don't have to make them.