to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

i really cant keep up with this but i had a email from OBJECT this evening.this is a brilliant site,not anti-porn but anti women being portrayed as sex objects.

bloody hell death, that's brilliant\

everyone look!

I am!
Reading the report on Lap dancing in Camden -
will report back.

Custy:

"even the worst levels of misogyny are acceptable as long as it means that men get their rocks off."

but is it mysogyny is i get my rocks off?

why are women sex workers and not men the subjugated?"

Because men have no paternity surity, and women are always sure of their maternity; thus is the route of all sex discrimanation that tries to impose controls on female sexuality.

Tell me about that lap dancing report Dj; is it the one about tips?

MT what you just said didn't make sense to me unless its some pseudo-freudian slant.

i do not wish to engage with you further on this particular subject

no its degrading to women because women are sure of their womanliness - but because men have fanny envy they exert their power through sexuality - this means that women are always the exploited - apparently

Never understood the degrading point. Men and women find each other visually stimulating. It's how we keep the human race going. I don't see why it's degrading. As long as women have equal rights in law and know that they can choose whether to sleep with a rich man and become a housewife, sell sex in a more obvious way for money or don't bother with that but actually earn their own living, be surgeons, prime ministers etc I can't see the problem.

There are obviously issues for every woman about the extent to which she uses her sexuality. I wear high heels because I think in our culture and in the work that I do that gives me an advantage but I could equally choose not to play that game, wear the modern equivalent of a burka and be sexually unnoticed. It's when women think their only choice is marriage or prostitution or its equivalents as a way to keep themselves that you have a problem.

crikey lem, you were'nt joking when you said you could teach me a thing or two!

but i cant understand how any one can get pleasure out of pain ?

'Because men have no paternity surity, and women are always sure of their maternity; thus is the route of all sex discrimanation that tries to impose controls on female sexuality. '

is this the reason for the rise of lads' mag culture in the past 10 years or so?i have been contemplating this point and wondering if male insecurity at no longer being needed other than to provide sperm is the root cause of this backlash against womens' rights.

the biggest concern i have is how far things will go.if there is already a magazine that has an 'amusing' comic strip about a paedophile,how long will it be before paedophilia becomes mainstream as well?

where will it end?

have a look at that link to 'object' i posted last night.apparently ann summers sells a porn mag that has a comic strip called 'chester the molester'

runs away scared

I've only started reading the thread, so only got a third of the way through but I agree with Elizabetth. I'm surprised and horrified at how porn has become normalised and I shouldn't be surprised, but still am, at how many mumsnetters think it's fine.

Crikey. I didnt realise that Elizabetth hadnt seen any of the stuff that she was arguing against. I'm therefore assuming she didnt look at the links I posted either. Which may well be why she isnt convinced by the evidence. Because she hasnt looked at it! PMSL.

Kinda blows the "I dont buy into what posters "friends" say" argument she had on the previous thread. Because she is relying on second/third hand information herself, from untrusted sources (Wikipedia). On the internet ffs!

At least I've seen close at hand (of course you'll only have to take my word for it ) elements of the porn industry through my ex-colleagues who used to bring in copies of their work that they were proud of.

I agree with MT about maternity and paternity being the underlying cause of discrimination. But I think therein lies the power of women in the porn industry. Not in all cases of course (I havent ever disputed that there are darker, awful, abusive parts of the industry), but the fact that women can use their sexuality to exert power over a man is one that keeps the industry going. The men need the women in order to produce this stuff.

"Men and women find each other visually stimulating. It's how we keep the human race going."

Yes, Xenia, but it's all about context. It would be fine if porn was developed in a respectful society where men and women are considered and treated as equals, but sadly that is not the case hence the ongoing very relevant debate.

VVVQ - but does this power you describe result in female control over the industry? Power through pay? I doubt it.

Yes, very much so.

Jenna Jameson is a good example of this. She was a producer/director and very bankable. She could dictate that she had the same male partner in all films.

Women can exert a huge amount of power in the industry generally, and often command far more than men, because as with mainstream actors - they have fans and popularity that allows them to demand more. Their appearance can determine whether a film will be a 'hit' or not.

Women often move from being actresses in films to producing and directing. They seem to have a better 'eye' for what is wanted, according to articles I have read.

Just a quick point, but a significant portion of the top studios producing regular porn are managed and were formed by women. One would hope that this is an effort whether consciously or not to alleviate some of the perceived exploitation of women in the industry. For people with the right physical assets it's just another way for them to earn a living, what's wrong with that? It's their choice, and it's your choice to watch - or not.

The exploitation level is the same for both sexes in any case. Women need boob jobs, a nice butt, and toned figure, men need silicon implants in their penises, and a six-pack. ;-)

I entirely agree that porn exists because the two sexes find each other visually stimulating. I don't find it wrong to enjoy looking at a woman who is happy for me to look at them, I'd close my eyes when any of my sexual partners took their clothes off if that was the case.

Porn was the best technical sex education I could have had pre-university... it was way more useful than A-Levels. ;-)

Custy, 'fanny envy'? How on earth..?!

Well, just in case any one else thought I was getting Freudian, paternity surity means to be sure of their status of fathers - men can never be as sure of this as women can be 100% sure that they are the mother to a child (maternity surity).

The fear of cuckoldry is innate to all men; it is very costly for a man to invest in children that he thinks is his, but aren;t. This is why women are controlled the world over and their sexuality constrained by patriachal institutions.

Alot of male insecuities are manifest in policy, especially rape prosecttion policy.

I wonder whether this continues throughout the industry though - both the 'transparent' part that I agree is a question of taste - take it or leave it, up to you - and the 'underground' part which is a different and darker entity and the bit most labelled "anti-porn" are probably concerned about.

'The exploitation level is the same for both sexes in any case. Women need boob jobs, a nice butt, and toned figure, men need silicon implants in their penises, and a six-pack. ;-)"

This isn't true. Men in mainstream porn are't having penises shoved in their bottoms then expected to suck them with the excrement still on them. Men aren't being doubly penetrated with the consequent damage to their rectums and vaginas that that causes. Men aren't gang banged or featured in gagging porn where they choke and vomit on penises.

As for mainstream pornography studios being owned by women, that's a hell of a claim to make and I'm sure you have plenty of evidence to back it up (and no Nina Hartley and that gang don't count, they aren't mainstream). Have a look at Adult Video News porn charts and point out which films in the top 50 are directed and produced by women.

The claims about Jenna Jameson are also ridiculous. It was her husband/pimp who realised he could make so much money out of her by keeping the rights to her films. He ran the company - she was the talent or rather the commodity.

Finally which male porn actors have had silicon implants in their penises because just about every female porn perfomer has had her breasts mutilated like that. Could you name a few names please?

"Porn was the best technical sex education I could have had pre-university... it was way more useful than A-Levels. ;-)"

What porn does is teach men to despise women and view their bodies as objects. How do you know the women you are ogling like it BTW?

"I just watched naked men posing for women photographers on "British Sex". Is THIS degrading to men?"

KerryMum - firstly, this is the age old issue of power - you simply can't make a straightforward comparison when you are dealing with men and women as groups. If only you could - that would indicate true equality! But, to answer your question - it possibly is degrading to some men and this should be respected. But if you are to analyse each individual's view you cannot progress as a society so some generalising has to be incorporated. And generally the power balance would suggest that the programme you described was less degrading to men than if the subjects were women.