to be surprised at how many Mumsnetters are fine with pornography? II

[Judy1234]

Continuing the previous thread - people's sexuality varies hugely and what some people think is disgusting is good fun for others. It's impossible to generalise and say XYZ practice is wrong or repugnant and I agree with the posts at the end of the other thread that porn often just reflects what people do. Obviously you pick where your own interests lie and are glad human beings are diverse.

Mt kate @ minimum dot co dot uk

I've followed this debate but this is my first post on the subject. Having listened to both sides of the argument I think it is fair to say that both sides are talking sense.

It is unquestionably wrong for anyone to be sexualy abused physically or verbally without their consent and yes there should be stricter controls in place to ensure movies/pics etc that do this have no place on the market.

However movies that include abuse (staged, acted or totally natural) should be available for the general public as long as there was full consent from all people involved and that the consent remains throughout the act.

I know I have no problem being called a bitch during sex because when your having that kind of sex it's quite a turn on, but to others the thought of that is repulsive and bordering on abuse (when it clearly isn't because it's consentual) and until people in this argument can put aside what they personally like or dislike sexually it is difficult to get a sensible debate on what is abuse.

Though getting tired of banging head against brick wall, one more point to make. If what all porn viewers really want is to see is rough stuff, why is the porn industry spending so much money on huge glossy extravaganzas like Pirates or Fashonistas or the star-wars pastiche that I've forgotten the name of?

no not dot co dot co dot co uk

rather: kate @ minimum dot co dot uk

something like that anyway. i'm sure it'll get here eventually...

jacqueline how can 'natural' abuse include consent throughout the act>?!!

you can't consent to abuse, otherwise it's not abuse.

you can consent to something that then turns into abuse tho, very easily.

Because porn directors probably fancy themselves as "film-makers", madamez, rather than the pimps they actually are. They're always trying to give themselves the gloss of respectability, but buying and selling human bodies is never going to be respectable.

I'd just like to know why men want to call women "bitches" during sex Jaqueline, and please don't fob me off with the "women like it" crap. It's pretty clear that there are men out there who like this stuff and like it a lot

Elizabeth, I'd advise you to give up, even though I agree 100% with you.
There are plenty of intelligent, thoughtful people who are deeply concerned about the effect that the saturation of pornography has on our society will have on our children.
Plenty of us are concerned in a way that goes beyond our personal craving for personal gratification, which seems the obsession of many of those on this thread.
Some of us do value women for more that the sum of their orifices, and don't want to live in a society that is happy to see women bought and sold.
I find it deeply offensive that on this thread you are aggressively and repeatedly 'offered' pornography and told your opinion is valueless because you do not consume pornography. We all know we don't have to watch, hear or endure murder/child abuse/fraud/blackmail/racist abuse and discrimination to know it is wrong - not just for individuals but for society as a whole. A society in which black people are routinely abused, degraded, used for their bodies and bought and sold can never be equal. For me, the same applies to pornography. I feel there is something warped and sadistic in the consistent pushing for you to view pornography by porn fans. That is especially relevant for the men who try to push pornography on a woman who has explained her rational and deeply personal reasons for her revulsion. It's coercive and borderline abusive. They sound to me a bit like Langham with his defence of his love of watching child abuse - 'you need to see it to understand it'. We don't accept it from him, and personally, I don't accept it from you.
But Elziabeth, you are an intelligent person, and you know that people who support a bad thing simply because they personally enjoy it will never change their view. Most of us realise that just because something gives people pleasure does not mean it is good - and that applies to stolen goods, the proceeds of fraud, sex with children or the pleasure of violent vengeance, all of which may be hugely pleasurable to some, but which comes at a cost to society and individuals. I would guess that most of the intelligent thoughtful people on this site are too repelled by the content of this thread to post here, but believe me, we too dream of an equal, equitable, non-abusive society, in which porn is as unacceptable as child prostitution and drink-driving. A world where women don't feel that their bodies are objects for sale. Nobody's talking of banning anything, we just despair of a society in which pornography is deemed purely another recreation. We want a deeper change than just banning pornography. We dream of a society in which people are valued as human beings, not as holes. Maybe Sweden is the way forward. I certainly hope so, for my three daughters' sake as well as for my son and all of society.

MT, climb down the high horse regarding banning, please.

Why are you having this debate then?
As Elisabetth says, to change minds and eventually
to get everyone to agree that Something Must Be Done About It,
i.e. banning it.

What Xenia is saying is highly relevant if we take
your arguments to their conclusion so not sure why you are
reacting so prickly to this.
Earlier on in the thread policywonk, myself and others
debated passionately whether and how a ban would work.

We are certainly on the right page but you really need to follow the
thread before raising your voice.

Brava!

The Amis article is really good - thanks for that Elizabetth

to Ozy

'gonzo-which-is-becoming-mainstream' -
obm, I enjoy debating with you!

Yes, that is the big question, to what extent is it mainstream.
How popular is it really?

I'd have stopped after the last thread then Ozymandius, but someone restarted it. :P

I'm sure you're right though. There's only so much rational argument a person can use coupled with plenty of evidence before its quite clear that people aren't listening and there is something else going on rather than the desire for a discussion. Thanks for your support and your very eloquent post.

And really most of the posts I've made have been to offer an alternative to the standard rah-rah porn position that is forced down our throats constantly (and if people are going to deny that I'd remind them that they now sell Playboy-branded items to schoolgirls in WH Smith - how bad do things have to be that that is acceptable?). Like I said earlier it was important for me to see it, so maybe it will make other people who object to porn feel less alone.

oh sheesh daddyj I appreciate your grin, but that's my point - we don't agree about the extent that gonzo is maintstream.

i think that the site that we discussed before (forgot name already) clearly shows gwibm but i don't think you did?

you thought it was textual not sexual

wah, wah, waaah.

hmm not sure that w w w joke comes across so well textually, you kind of have to hear it to get it..

text text text, that's all i ever think about..

Ozymandius, Walnuts, I think your thoughtful posts require a response:

The point is not that the op has not viewed porn or is not a porn consumer.
Of course she is not. And it is irrelevant.

The point is if she calls something 'gang rape'
it has to be accurate.

If I understand correctly even in child abuse
cases the evidence HAS to be seen by the jury
and the judge.
Why should it be any different on this thread?

obm, yup, that's where the disagreement is,
you would say it's mainstream, I would disagree.
For the time being!

ok daddyj i understand your position on the gang rape point.

i don't think e needs or wants anyone to speak for her.

but for me, i wouldn't have used that exact expression - but I prob would have thought it.

however seems to me that there is a strongly coersive element in a sexual scenario involving more than one penetrator.

perhaps not, in a court of law, gang rape but ...?

When I use the term abuse I meen someone spanking, being whipped verbal abuse etc

and by natural I mean home movies or amatures (sp) not staged just stick the camcorder on and have some fun.

and elizabetth yes some men do love to call women bitches and love watching women being called bitches. The same as some women love to be called it, and how some men love to be calle a bastard or worse.

It takes all sorts you know and just because one person finds it repulsive doesn't make it wrong as long as it is consentual.

I called it a "gang rape scenario". Are you really that much of a literalist that you can't understand the point I'm making?

A woman trapped in the back of a van with three men pressurising her into sexual acts is in a rape scenario, particularly when she is horribly verbally abused. I'm not saying the actresses are gang raped, I"m saying that they are portraying acts that in real life are rape. These things are done to women, they aren't fantasies. Women have been tricked into vans, forced to have sex and then thrown out into the street. The men who do it will even claim the women "consented" because she'd be too frightened to fight back. The Bang Bus portrays this sort of treatment of women as entertainment.

obm, that's a very dangerous route to take, though, is it not!?
Calling anything we don't like 'gang rape'.

Rape is a serious crime. Is it right to bandy it about so carelessly?

jh - this is a critical part of the debate.
some of us feel that while there are some women who like to be called bitches, there are an awful lot of porn consumers, mainly male, who like to hear women being called bitches.

Yes I 100% agree that there are a lot of men who like to hear the verbal abuse in porn but if the people within the porn are happy and secure with the language being used then surely there is no issue.

no, probably not. but it's not a totally insane thing to say, given my previous coercive point (see how I've learnt to spell coercive in the last 5 mins.)

the pro's have over-focussed on it, i think.

and I do think it's possible that they've done so to avoid dealing with other, very scary for all of us, points that E has raised.

Look, Elisabeth, I have worked my way through
most of your (btw very interesting) articles
about the porn industry to understand your point of view better.

I am currently reading the Amis one so
apologies for slow post speed.

It would be nice if you could extend that
same courtesy to us and engage with the
evidence that we put before you.

You cannot make it up as you go.
This debate is far too important for that.