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A message from a trans friend. International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia .....

999 replies

Biber · 18/05/2021 09:59

Apparently today is the International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia...

I shall do my part, so here are a few things that might help others to understand better.

Everyone has to go to the toilet at some point. I think even for many non-trans people, public toilets are often only used as a last resort (has anyone ever actually been inside a "nice" public toilet?). This is also the case for trans people. No one uses them unless the really have to. Trans people aren't thinking about what's down there on other people or anything like that (only perverts are). Trans people just want to avoid making a stinking mess in their underwear, without having to prove what they themselves have (or haven't got) down there (i.e. some dignity would be nice). No one should feel uncomfortable doing their business and everyone is entitled to privacy. That applies to both trans and non-trans people. If someone does make you feel uncomfortable through their actions (not by how they dress or present themselves), then you should do something about it, because you in fact are likely not the only one who will be uncomfortable.
In short, why aren't all public toilets individual and completely private? Do spare a thought for those of us with more generalised anxiety disorders...

There are some people who are quite happy to include trans people once they have fully transitioned, i.e. undergone surgery. That's great, we just need to tell our doctors and the trust who is going to fund the surgery and the surgeons and the hospital where we will be having the surgery that they all need to bloody well hurry up so that we can have the surgery and be finally be included. Don't they realise that if we have to wait another year, we are going to continue to be excluded? That some people will still deny us the right to use certain facilities (the loo in some cases)? Forget the fact that it would be great to have the surgery as soon as possible so that we can be comfortable with ourselves and get on with our lives... So, trans people are being "temporarily excluded" because they cannot speed up a system (that they themselves so badly want to speed up), which is already under-resourced and overwhelmed saving people's lives.
Oh, and btw, trans people are aware that it isn't the surgery that finally makes them the other sex/gender. They know they are more likely to see a properly funded and resourced NHS under the Tories than they are to ever have children once they have had the surgery; that it's all a sort of compromise/this is the best that can be done with your body. But until or unless huge advances are made in medicine and surgery, this is the best that can be achieved for now. Well, it is better than nothing. After all, it hasn't even been 100 years yet since the first sex reassignment surgery was performed.

Of course, that is assuming all transgender people can have surgery, or even want surgery. As surprising as it may sound, transgender people come in all sorts - old and young, short and tall, all sorts of ethnicities, cool, boring, fun, smart, stupid... Oh, and they also differ in terms of their gender identities and presentation (the clue is after all in the term). Some of them might just not be very conventional in terms of their presentation and behaviour, have no interest in taking hormones, and definitely do not want surgery. Others will go all the way and do it so well that you will doubt they are telling the truth about them being trans, even as they shove a copy of their birth certificate and their baby pictures in your face. A lot of people are somewhere inbetween. One does have to wonder how a single term can be used to describe such a diverse range of people! With that in mind, I propose we rename it to "gender-diverse" (like "neuro-diverse"), because "diverse" seems like such a good word at the moment, right?

Trans people exist. Always have, always will. Everywhere. If you have a friend who is trans and is happy to speak to you about it and answer any questions you have, then do speak to them about it. This is important. Why? Because not all trans people are so happy or willing to talk about it. Why? Because how many times do you have to explain the same things over and over again to people who will, despite their best intentions, never really get it? To a society that at present, partly excludes you at best, and at worst tries to kill you. A society where your rights and existence are denied, where people don't believe you, and you spend a long time waiting in uncertainty. Speaking of uncertainty, trans people have one thing to thank covid-19 for: every single person in the world now knows what it is like to have their live on hold for a long period of time, faced with uncertainties in a situation far beyond their control, in a system that is not prepared to deal with them. Now you all have an understanding of what it is like emotionally to be trans (though without the gender bit), and I'm sorry because I would not have wished that even on my worst enemies (ok, well maybe for a few weeks at most for the worst of the worst).

And with that, I bid you all a happy International Day Against Homophobia, Transphobia and Biphobia!

OP posts:
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WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 20/05/2021 01:30

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Phyllis means that the men's toilets have become less welcoming of boys with long hair, because it's become the new expectation that transwomen should use women's facilities.

This whole mess has reified (if I'm using the word correctly) the concept that the men's toilets are for extremely masculine men only, and that everyone else else has to go in the women's.

When men tell women and each other that transwomen must use the women's, it seems they're not that good at defining what a transwoman is.

Sorry. Yes this is exactly what I meant. DS wouldn't use the ladies as he's not female. He's very much on the side of women in this and can't understand how anyone thinks men should be allowed in women's facilities.

But if men would accept all men, regardless if how they identify then he wouldn't feel excluded from the men's either.
As it is he's like the oft mentioned teen girls on these threads. He minimises his fluid intake if he's out so he doesn't need to pee.

NiceGerbil · 20/05/2021 01:33

Well then.

The solution is obviously to keep male and female stuff.

Any man who is worried about other men (that's pretty much all of them at some point right?) should come in the women's.

Ummm.

So the male stuff is for violent men and the ladies is for everyone else?

So it sort of says ok violent men are violent what can you do. No point bothering with that.

So let's keep the women's stuff and say anyone who is scared can come in there?

That feels like a massive step back tbh.

Why is there no appetite to try to sort out male behaviour patterns?

And why is it that even though women and girls have specific risks etc we are being lumped in with men who other men might pick on???

Because there's men. And not men.

I mean FFS

NiceGerbil · 20/05/2021 01:35

Oh sorry OP.

Where is this happening? In school? Shopping centres?

NiceGerbil · 20/05/2021 01:37

He's 14 right? And we've been in and out of lockdown for ages.

Where is this happening that he's getting threatened like that?

WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 20/05/2021 01:44

That's exactly my point! We need to keep sex segregated spaces and men need to learn to accept non gender conforming men and boys in their spaces. Not put women at potential risk by scaring some men out.

It's has happened in various public toilets, including school. (School deny its a problem and suggested he has a hair cut) Not just over the last year. Before covid. Since his hair was past his shoulders probably.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/05/2021 01:47

It goes back to what we were saying a few pages ago.

Why did the OP come here to lecture women about being more accepting of trans people and possible trans people in toilets? Why not go to male-dominated sites and ask men to be more inclusive of gender non-conforming men and boys, and transwomen?

Where is the men's You Can Pee Next To Me campaign?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 20/05/2021 01:56

I mean, look at this.

Mhairi Black, supporting either mixed-sex toilets as standard, or possibly saying that she welcomed transwomen in the women's toilets, with a "you can pee next to me" t-shirt. One of those, anyway.
www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/4177484/snp-mhairi-black-legend-trans-shirt/

Where are the lefty, proud trans ally men with their t-shirts, making transwomen feel welcome? www.redbubble.com/shop/?gender=gender-men&iaCode=u-tees&query=you%20can%20pee%20next%20to%20me&sortOrder=relevant

NiceGerbil · 20/05/2021 01:57

Sorry Phyllis.

I totally misunderstood.

In reality. Is it worse or have arsehole men and boys just got another angle.

GreyhoundG1rl · 20/05/2021 02:02

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WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 20/05/2021 02:03

No worries Gerbil. I've posted about him before and sometimes forget that on a site as big as this people probably won't have even read my previous posts, much less remembered them.

I don't know if it's got worse tbh. Or what the solution is. Men need to learn to "be kind." But exactly how we teach them that I don't know.

MyMajesty · 20/05/2021 02:07

The conversation isn't about women or men, it's about the trans experience.

The conversation can't be about trans experience without also including everyone else's experience, because trans people want everyone to pretend that trans people are the sex other than the one they actually are.

NiceGerbil · 20/05/2021 02:07

Women and girls have been trying forever.

In the end it's easier in so many ways to ignore the problem and focus on the victims.

Men don't care. In the end. About any of this.

And namalt but not so much. Most blokes are not affected/ those who make them feel uncomfy should be elsewhere. They gain. In all of this.

5zeds · 20/05/2021 02:19

My dh is horrified by the thought of men being in the ladies or women in the gents. I don’t know ANY men who think it’s a good idea. A fair few teenage girls thoughSad

Boredoutmymind · 20/05/2021 02:58

Transwomen are women and can use the womens facilities. Its your brains that chose gender and not body parts.
Sex is the legal term based on how its defined in the country.
We need to get rid of gender stereotypes.

All this hate towards men and transwomen.
Lets talk about the fact that women can be violent too. But on mumsnet women are all soft spoken angels dont ya know. Hmm
Most of you would have shared a toilet with a transperson without even realising.

In the UK there are no laws against which toilets you can use.
What did people do before we had segregation? They had communal toilets with no cubicles.

If anyone is going to attack anyone a door with women only or men only on it wont stop them.

People go to toilets to use the toilet and then leave. They dont hang around waiting to attack people.

stonecat · 20/05/2021 03:06

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WhatWouldPhyllisCraneDo · 20/05/2021 03:20

Transwomen are women and can use the womens facilities. What is a woman?

Its your brains that chose gender and not body parts. agreed. But some things/places need to be separated by sex not gender. This includes toilets, changing rooms, prisons and sports teams.

Sex is the legal term based on how its defined in the country. No idea what this means.

We need to get rid of gender stereotypes. Agreed.

All this hate towards men and transwomen. Lets talk about the fact that women can be violent too. But on mumsnet women are all soft spoken angels dont ya know. Most of you would have shared a toilet with a transperson without even realising. So because women can be violent too we should let men into our safe spaces? Despite all the evidence showing that men are more violent, more often than women.

In the UK there are no laws against which toilets you can use. Yes well. There should be.
What did people do before we had segregation? They had communal toilets with no cubicles. What did people do before we had lots of things. Times change. Women campaigned and fought for the right to have single sex spaces. Most of us don't want that to change.

If anyone is going to attack anyone a door with women only or men only on it wont stop them. No but its harder for them to do so if women question why men are in women's spaces.

People go to toilets to use the toilet and then leave. They dont hang around waiting to attack people. Hahaha. Yea sure.

Furries · 20/05/2021 03:32

I’d like to thank @Biber for starting this thread. You’ve opened my eyes to what’s going on - but not int way you hoped.

Thanks to the majority of incredibly measured responses on here, I’ve now read more and am starting to realise the implications of what is happening elsewhere.

Those that have shared their stories, especially regarding their children, thank you. You shouldn’t have to, but thank you.

Thanks to this thread, I’m going to be reading a lot more.

stonecat · 20/05/2021 03:36

This reply has been deleted

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Helleofabore · 20/05/2021 03:45

Not sure how many old tropes you can fit into one post their bored.

Its your brains that chose gender and not body parts

I think you will find this is transphobic. We are told there is no ‘choice’ about it.

Sex is the legal term based on how its defined in the country.

No. Sex is the arrangement of your body around one of either two reproductive functions. These functions are to produce either large gametes or small gametes, whether that happens or not. Your are either female or male whatever country you live in. And we are also told that biology is no longer being denied.

We need to get rid of gender stereotypes.

Yes. Feminists have been saying this for a very long time. Yet, trans activism requires stereotypes to remain. How else are trans people defined? How can someone be non-binary if everyone else isn’t ‘binary’.

All this hate towards men and transwomen.
Lets talk about the fact that women can be violent too.

98% of all sex crimes are perpetrated by MALES however they identify. The statistics don’t lie. And MALES are overwhelmingly committing violent crime too. That is why males are excluded from female’s toilets.

Most of you would have shared a toilet with a transperson without even realising.

Another common fallacy that is all too often wheeled out. Of course, women notice males. Very few males who transition would go undetected.

And how very transphobic of you to also imply that males need to adjust their appearance in any way to be a transwoman!!

In the UK there are no laws against which toilets you can use.

Under the EA2010, males can be excluded from single sex spaces if there is reasonable expectation that the facilities are needed to be restricted to women. The recent JR case indicated that this is yet untested in law.

What did people do before we had segregation? when? In the past, females were expected not to travel further than a quick trip home to be able to go to the toilet there. Read up on the urinary leash. Then female toilets came into being. For females and all their toilet needs.

They had communal toilets with no cubicles.

What? Yes, you are right. People squatted in the fields as needed. Yet, even the romans had segregated facilities!

If anyone is going to attack anyone a door with women only or men only on it wont stop them.

We keep hearing this. So why then are transitioned males claiming they are safer in the female toilets? Seems like you cannot have it both ways. If it not safer, they should use the toilet for their sex.

People go to toilets to use the toilet and then leave. They dont hang around waiting to attack people.

Really? So again, no need to use the female toilets. They are safe to use the male toilets and considering 90% of transitioned males retain their penises, it is probably more efficient to use the urinal compared to a cubicle toilet.

In the meantime, you also might like to read up on the number of times females are attacked by males in ‘unisex’ toilets and in female toilets. And while you are at it, please check out the videos uploaded on pornhub and onlyfans of transitioned males performing sex acts in female toilets. It is there on the internet and apparently a fast growing porn category. Meaning it is completely useless to deny it happens and will continue.

And also check out the videos of women being caught by cameras planted by voyeuristic males. Or just read the news about them. There is constantly males being charged with planting cameras in female toilets and change rooms.

Helleofabore · 20/05/2021 03:47

Hey furries welcome.

This link might be interesting too.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Erikrie · 20/05/2021 06:29

Not sure how many old tropes you can fit into one post their bored.

I know. It's like a forgotten old trope museum. Boring, untrue, overused, and irrelevant. Needs to close its doors for good as no one is interested in what they have on display. They're losing funding and sales at a rapid rate. Posts like that are one final desperate call out for business before they sink. For good. To be replaced by the centre of truth and sunlight 🌞

TheVampiresWife · 20/05/2021 06:59

@Boredoutmymind

Transwomen are women and can use the womens facilities. Its your brains that chose gender and not body parts. Sex is the legal term based on how its defined in the country. We need to get rid of gender stereotypes.

All this hate towards men and transwomen.
Lets talk about the fact that women can be violent too. But on mumsnet women are all soft spoken angels dont ya know. Hmm
Most of you would have shared a toilet with a transperson without even realising.

In the UK there are no laws against which toilets you can use.
What did people do before we had segregation? They had communal toilets with no cubicles.

If anyone is going to attack anyone a door with women only or men only on it wont stop them.

People go to toilets to use the toilet and then leave. They dont hang around waiting to attack people.

I don't hate trans people. But they openly hate my daughter, because she's a lesbian. Or, to use their terminology, a transphobic vagina fetishist.

Yes, we need to get rid of gender stereotypes. But that's pretty hard to do when some people reduce femininity to wearing heels and a dress.

DrSbaitso · 20/05/2021 07:11

Transwomen are women

They are not adult humans of the reproductive sex class capable of producing ova.

Tibtom · 20/05/2021 07:22

He has been told to "fuck off back to the ladies" or called a "transgender bitch" more than once.

I am not sure this is a reaction to feminine/masculine males. Transideology has been creeping out into MSM and public knowledge and people don't like it. They don't like the demands for everything to be centred on transwomen, the demand people lie, women in their space, the thought they may be tricked into sleeping with someone of the wrong sex, or photos of violent or paedophilic men in the newpaper being referred to as 'she', being expected to kowtow to someone else belief system. No debate means they feel this has been imposed on them without consent. This is just as likely to be a reaction against transideology as feminine men.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 20/05/2021 07:26

Note to Bored “transwomen are women” just doesn’t work any more. It’s not a spell you can say and the people who disagree will magically vanish or change their minds, this isn’t Hogwarts (which is also incidentally why sex is observed not assigned at birth as there are no sorting hats in maternity wards)