He lied on the death certificate - up to something?

[Justilou1]

I’m writing on behalf of a friend. She lives in England but neither of us are English. (Culturally not dissimilar, but some things are different...) She has been looking after her elderly great Aunt for over ten years while also working FT, but mostly as a companion until very recently, when this old lady’s health declined.... When she was working, she had district nurses visiting and Blue Birds (?) twice a day, so the lady’s cares we’re met and she wasn’t lonely. She sat with her at the hospital and held her hand for three days while she died. When she returned to the house (11:30pm!!) this lady’s nephew was there, saying that he was the executor of the estate, and he took everything from the filing cabinet and her handbag. He also tested his keys in the door locks. My friend thought to call the lady’s lawyer the next morning to advise that she had passed, only to discover that this man was NOT the executor, but SHE was... the lawyer contacted the man and advised that he had to return all the paperwork. He spent all week closing accounts (not sure he can do that, though - not that it matters if he doesn’t touch them, I suppose... unless he appoints himself a signatory or something, I guess...) AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!! WHY??? (*Also, he is supposed to be massively involved in some happy clappy church, too - pretty sure lying is not okay.) What the hell is he playing at?

He hadnt seen this old lady for three or more years, btw.

[YouokHun]

I think registering a death in lockdown has been different, mostly done by phone rather than in person.

What @skodadoda says is right, as I was trying to say in my garbled way up thread. In my DF’s case a district nurse certified death (he died at home), they then took that paperwork to the GP who issued paperwork straight to the registrar. They then called my DM to ask questions/verify details and give information about the Tell Us Once service etc and confirm details my DM would know. Then the death certificate and copies appeared in the post. This is one process actually improved by Covid. No signing and no visits to the registrar.

[MrsClatterbuck]

She can do probate herself but as there is a house involved I would be inclined to appoint the solicitor or another solicitor if she wants to administer the estate. They will write to all the financial institutions for details of the accounts as at date of death and if they hold any other assets etc. There may also be IHT to be paid depending on the value of the house and the rest of her estate.

[RB68]

you need urgent legal advice - I think the move needs to be you apply for probate but you will need the death certificate and will original copies to do this. I personally wuld also speak to the registrar (of deaths) and discuss the issues.

[MaggieFS]

@YouokHun Thanks for explaining and sorry for your loss. When I had to do it, it was pre covid so went to the Registrar in person.

I think what is clear is that nothing is clear! A lot seems jumbled so I hope OP's friend gets the correct support.

[Jessbow]

Death certs do not name people present at the death. Think you are misunderstanding/misinterpreting something

[Newkitchen123]

@Jessbow

Death certs do not name people present at the death. Think you are misunderstanding/misinterpreting something

If the person registering the death was present that is recorded on the certificate

[skodadoda]

@Jessbow

Death certs do not name people present at the death. Think you are misunderstanding/misinterpreting something

They do if the person registering the death was present.

[Tambora]

I was with my mum when she died in hospital and I went to the register office. So under informant it says my name and 'present at the death'.

[HalzTangz]

@Justilou1

I’m writing on behalf of a friend. She lives in England but neither of us are English. (Culturally not dissimilar, but some things are different...) She has been looking after her elderly great Aunt for over ten years while also working FT, but mostly as a companion until very recently, when this old lady’s health declined.... When she was working, she had district nurses visiting and Blue Birds (?) twice a day, so the lady’s cares we’re met and she wasn’t lonely. She sat with her at the hospital and held her hand for three days while she died. When she returned to the house (11:30pm!!) this lady’s nephew was there, saying that he was the executor of the estate, and he took everything from the filing cabinet and her handbag. He also tested his keys in the door locks. My friend thought to call the lady’s lawyer the next morning to advise that she had passed, only to discover that this man was NOT the executor, but SHE was... the lawyer contacted the man and advised that he had to return all the paperwork. He spent all week closing accounts (not sure he can do that, though - not that it matters if he doesn’t touch them, I suppose... unless he appoints himself a signatory or something, I guess...) AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!! WHY??? (*Also, he is supposed to be massively involved in some happy clappy church, too - pretty sure lying is not okay.) What the hell is he playing at?

He hadnt seen this old lady for three or more years, btw.

What he's playing at is he wants all the money

[Justilou1]

Yeah - I think it’s abundantly clear. After the funeral she will speak to the lawyer and find out what’s in the will. She will let the lawyer explain everything to them and she is DEFINITELY changing the locks. (The lawyer has advised her to as well.)

[Justilou1]

Am wondering if the present at death thing depends on where you live and register the death, perhaps?

[LakieLady]

@bunburyscucumbersandwich

I've just looked at my dm death certificate and it does say my name, daughter and present at death.

She died last year, so they are still doing it.

Yes, you're right.

Only certain people can register a death, and someone who was present at the death is one of them (next of kin and person responsible for arranging the funeral are others, but I can't remember the rest).

I wanted to register my late partner's death myself, as I was present at his, but his son beat me to it and made the appointment about 10 minutes before I rang to do it. He was able to register it because he was the next of kin.

[saraclara]

@Justilou1

Am wondering if the present at death thing depends on where you live and register the death, perhaps?

No, it applies everywhere in England at least.

If you look at the photo of my DH's certificate in my earlier post, you can see the box titled 'qualifications'. That explains why the person registering the death is allowed to do so. Being present at the death is one of the 'qualifications'. If the person registering wasn't there, then the certificate won't say anything about who was present or wasn't.

As I said before, it's not a series of checkboxes where there's a tick for present/not present. There's just a blank space where it's typed in if it applies. To the left of the box in the bit you can't see, is my name. In the box that you can see, it explains why I 'qualified' to register it.

[Justilou1]

He’s definitely being dodgy though... I have no idea about the death certificate here where I live. The last two I saw were my parents and the family doctors certified their deaths. They had very long illnesses, so they were expecting it. I think I requested the death certs to be sent to the funeral directors, but it was such a blur, I barely remember. Customarily, our funerals are held closer to the death (probably because of the heat where I live, I imagine.).

[toconclude]

@TwoAndAnOnion

AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!!

I don't understand this bit. A doctor certifies the death, a person then takes the form to register the death. The death certificate does not say who was there at the time of death. Unless things are different under covid and you cant register in person?

On some certificates it says "present at the death" as part of the "qualification" of the person notifying the death. Close relatives qualify purely by reason of their relationship. E.G. DH registered my mother's death, neither of us were there as she died suddenly in hospital before we could get there.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Your friend might not care about inheriting and, as executor, might well want to appoint a solicitor to do the work of putting together the application for probate, for her.

But, given her relationship with her Great Aunt, she'd surely want to ensure that her GA's wishes are carried out accurately and respectfully?

She might also want to do the sorting through the house and possessions task, to make sure things of sentimental value are passed on appropriately.

If she is a beneficiary, she should see that as accepting a gift gracefully. She doesn't actually have a choice about it.

But I think it's important to detach the task of being executor from the possibility of being a beneficiary. Even if everything's going to a third party, someone has to do the job of executorship.

[SkodaKodiaq]

Yep this was done to facilitate a deathbed will

[longtompot]

@SkodaKodiaq

Yep this was done to facilitate a deathbed will

As something I only recently found out about (Doctors on bbc1) they said that is only valid if handed over by the person who is just about to die in front of two independent witnesses? I'm aware this is a tv show so not necessarily accurate, but is this at all correct? How does he think he is entitled to anything if not in her will?

[EverythingRuined]

If the nephew doesn't know the OPs friend that well then it's not out of the realms of possibility that he wanted to freeze the accounts so that the friend wouldn't help herself to any money.
The fact that the friend started looking after the Aunt for the last ten years or so is the type of thing someone who had their eye on an inheritance would do. The nephew could be as untrusting of the OPs friend as the OPs friend is of the nephew.
Freezing the accounts was a sensible thing to do if there is any uncertainty about who was dealing with the will. I also don't think it was unreasonable that the nephew might have thought he was the person who was dealing with it. He may have been told he was in the past.
All he has done is freeze the accounts. 🤷🏻‍♀️ That's not the sign of someone who is trying to scam anyone. I don't know about the fact he said he was present when the Aunt died. That sounds odd.
I also don't think the fact the didnt visit has much to do with it. Who
Knows what the backstory is? The Aunt could have been an awful person or could have not wanted him to visit. No one here knows. Look at all the threads about posters going NC with elderly relatives.
Some posters on Mumsnet are always so fixed about what other people are thinking and doing when they can't possibly know the real situation.
Maybe the Nephew is a villain but maybe he is just being cautious. 🤷🏻‍♀️

[Justilou1]

If anyone’s still interested in this one, I have an *UPDATE**
The funeral was beautiful and sad. The rest of the family that bothered to show up were a) dressed in jeans and b) refused to throw the soil on the coffin. None of them brought flowers, etc. 🤷🏼‍♀️

Then a week later my friend who was the executor was emailled the will. The nephew and his dad were each left a nominal amount of money and she was left the house. She did not expect this at all. The nephew rang to say that he will not be contesting as it “was signed by two lawyers who attested to her sound mind, as did her medical certificate. It was very difficult to prove coercion in court.....” twat. He left out the bit where she stated clearly that her house was left to her by her husband and their entitled behaviour had been obvious since before he died. 😆 (also in previous wills) My friend is in shock! Now navigating death tax system which is very foreign to us.

[MrsClatterbuck]

This will definitely have to go through probate now. Maybe sound out the solicitor about getting them fo administer the estate and find out the fees. It might be worth it and she won't have to have any contact with the nephew or his father. That's if she is the executor so would be her call.

[JemimaJoy]

Seems entirely unnecessary and a bit disciminatory to mention that he attends church. Would you have mentioned that he attends a mosque or synagogue? How exactly is it relevent to the story?

[Justilou1]

I mentioned it because he is happy to use the good, church-going citizen to perpetuate his own myth, yet he has lied on a legal document, ignored his own relative and according to her, been entitled.He also sulked at her graveside, and couldn’t bring himself to show her any respect. He has accused my friend of coercion, it would seem. Meanwhile, I have never met the man, and am responding to the snide email I read.
**I have known my friend for 30+ years and she took me in from a violent situation when she had nothing at all. She has been pathologically independent all her life and I know her too well to believe a thing that this man implied.

[alexdgr8]

well that's good, OP.
the old lady has out-witted him, and done what she wanted in leaving the bulk of her estate to your friend.
she will probably need a solicitor to administer the estate, and deal with inheritance tax. i guess the house will need to be sold to pay the tax.
that's best done asap a there are penalties for late payment.
anyway i'm glad there seems to be some justice for the good guys.
please keep us updated on all this.
all the best to you, and to her.

[Justilou1]

Thanks. The house will have to be sold. That’s definite. It’s also what the old lady wanted. It’s ummm... “a Renovator’s Delight”, I think they’d say... will unfortunately most likely be demolished. Anyhow, my friend has choices now that she never did before. She misses the old lady. The house feels very empty without her. She said it’s weird coming home from work without rushing back to relieve the nurses, and phoning several times through the day to see how she’s feeling and if she’s eaten, etc.... I think she will be quite lonely, tbh.