He lied on the death certificate - up to something?

[Justilou1]

I’m writing on behalf of a friend. She lives in England but neither of us are English. (Culturally not dissimilar, but some things are different...) She has been looking after her elderly great Aunt for over ten years while also working FT, but mostly as a companion until very recently, when this old lady’s health declined.... When she was working, she had district nurses visiting and Blue Birds (?) twice a day, so the lady’s cares we’re met and she wasn’t lonely. She sat with her at the hospital and held her hand for three days while she died. When she returned to the house (11:30pm!!) this lady’s nephew was there, saying that he was the executor of the estate, and he took everything from the filing cabinet and her handbag. He also tested his keys in the door locks. My friend thought to call the lady’s lawyer the next morning to advise that she had passed, only to discover that this man was NOT the executor, but SHE was... the lawyer contacted the man and advised that he had to return all the paperwork. He spent all week closing accounts (not sure he can do that, though - not that it matters if he doesn’t touch them, I suppose... unless he appoints himself a signatory or something, I guess...) AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!! WHY??? (*Also, he is supposed to be massively involved in some happy clappy church, too - pretty sure lying is not okay.) What the hell is he playing at?

He hadnt seen this old lady for three or more years, btw.

[Cottonheadedninymuggins]

@Waspie

None of this makes sense. Being next of kin is irrelevant. The nephew can declare himself the queen of sheba and it wouldn't make an iota of difference to the legal process.

Your friend "doesn't give a shit" about the woman she has been companion to and nursed for the last 10 years? Seriously? She will have to "give a shit" if she is the executor of her estate, or find someone else (like the deceased's solicitor) to do it for her. As others have said, executing an estate is a big responsibility.

I've registered two deaths in the past year. I wasn't present on either occasion. A medical certificate was provided and I registered the deaths with the registrar. I was not the official next of kin for either of these people.

I don't think the op means she didn't care about the person. More the friend doesn't care about money and things left to her and wasn't in it for what she could get, unlike the sudden appearance and involvement of the nephew

[knittingaddict]

@HollowTalk

But she died in hospital and they would issue the death certificate. He wouldn't be able to just sign a death certificate!

I think they do a medical certificate and then it's up to relatives to organise the death certificate. Both of my maternal grandparents died in hospital, but we still had to register the death.

I agree that he couldn't have actually signed the DC, but he may have made a declaration about being present. I'm not sure if he would even be asked this if it was a hospital death.

[Justilou1]

Thank you @Zzelda... My friend wasn’t caring for this lady with an eye to inherit anything. She offered her something she didn’t have here at home - a “mother figure” who genuinely loved her. Those two pottered about symbiotically and gained as much from their friendship with each other as any grandmother/granddaughter would have. (My friend’s mum is awful, so this relationship was very healing for her.) When she moved in, it was supposed to be temporary, but it became clear that the old lady was lonely and gained a new lease on life from having my friend stay. The nephew used to pop in for a cup of tea with a box of chocolates before Christmas or her birthday if he remembered either of them, and he’d always ring a few days before his own birthday. This lady was sharp as a knife right until the end... She knew what game he was playing and used to laugh about him. (He was Mr Potato)

[Justilou1]

Oh, and the will is still with the solicitor and she is leaving it there until after the funeral. She’s not up to dealing with any of that quite yet - and she’s smart enough to organize the wake in a pub, too.

[SunflowersAndLavender]

Wow this is really shocking - sounds like that TV thing, I care A Lot.

If it were me, I'd go to the police.

[wdmtthgcock]

The solicitors will only immediately act if they themselves are named as executors or if they have been instructed to do so by the executor named in the Will. Just because they hold the Will doesn’t mean they are instructed to act. The executor is free to take the Will and deal with the estate themselves or take it to another solicitor of their choosing

Might be a good idea for your friend to instruct the solicitor to act - thereby passing over the executor role to them. Obviously there would end up being fees to pay (which could be quite substantial) but as this could get nasty with this nephew around and as your friends seem to have little idea at all about procedures it is probably the best option for her.
The fees will be taken out of the estate before any money is paid out so she would not be paying out of her own pocket.

[MBDBBB]

@wdmtthgcock

The solicitors will only immediately act if they themselves are named as executors or if they have been instructed to do so by the executor named in the Will. Just because they hold the Will doesn’t mean they are instructed to act. The executor is free to take the Will and deal with the estate themselves or take it to another solicitor of their choosing

Might be a good idea for your friend to instruct the solicitor to act - thereby passing over the executor role to them. Obviously there would end up being fees to pay (which could be quite substantial) but as this could get nasty with this nephew around and as your friends seem to have little idea at all about procedures it is probably the best option for her.
The fees will be taken out of the estate before any money is paid out so she would not be paying out of her own pocket.

Sorry you misunderstood me, the solicitors wouldn’t be the executors in her place, they would be acting for her as the executor in dealing with the estate. You can’t just pass executorship to someone else. But yes it would be much easier for her to instruct the solicitor to act on her behalf.

[Thelittleweasel]

@Justilou1

I ma not aware that the word "executor" appears on the death certificate. If the person reporting the death [with all the details from hospital and so on] was there then the words "present at the death" are addeed

[DogsSausages]

The name of the Executor appears on the Will

[Zzelda]

Your friend needs to get the locks changed quickly.

[PinkSparklyPussyCat]

However, when probate is applied for, the executor will be asked whether a POA existed and if it did, will be required to supply a copy.

I didn't have to supply a copy of the POA when DM died.

I'm named as executor of my Uncle's will and I've already decided I'm handing the paperwork over to a solicitor and letting them deal with it. I had to take over as executor of DM's will as my uncle renounced and that was straightforward and that was stressful enough. After seeing what being executor of MIL's will did to DH because of family arguments I'm not getting involved.

[2bazookas]

I think you've misunderstood the formalities and paperwork surrounding death in the UK.

In UK, death certificates are filled in by a UK-registered medical doctor, nobody else. There is a place on the form for the DR to say when he saw the body to confirm death. and when he last saw the patient alive (if he did).

None of that information was provided or written by the nephew.

The Medical Death certificate is then taken to the local Registry office for the death to be officially, formally registered. (A relative or friend usually goes. They are required to provide a list of formal documents as proofs of the deceased's ID., address, NI number, driving license etc.) That explains why he took documents from her handbag and file.

. At the Registry Office all forms are copleted are completed by a Registrar (using the medical and other documentss). NOT, by the person who came to get the death registered. The Nephew did not write the information provided by the doctor, nor did he write the Death Certificate.

There is nowhere on a Registered Death certificate to say who was present at the death.

All he has done, is legally register the death.

Notifying the deceased's bank the account-holder has died, is also standard practice. The bank freezes the account until they are contacted by the Executor.

[bunburyscucumbersandwich]

@2bazookas the place where it says if someone was present at the death is under Informant > qualifications. So my mums certificate says informant: Bunbury qualification: daughter present at death.

[saraclara]

I took this photo 30 seconds ago. My late DH's death certificate.

OP's friend is probably not mistaken then

[saraclara]

There is nowhere on a Registered Death certificate to say who was present at the death.

@2bazookas see the photo I've just posted.

If the person registering the death was there at the death, it will be noted. If they weren't, then obviously it won't.

Seeing certificates where it's not noted doesn't mean that certificates don't mention it in other circumstances. It's not a box to be ticked, there's simply a space to note it if relevant.

[milveycrohn]

I believe to register the death, he would need a MCCD, which is the certificate the doctor gives of the cause of death (Medical Certificate of Cause of Death). So, I am surprised he was able to register the death, if he was not at the hospital when the lady died.
I am not sure he would be able to close the bank accounts, but they might be frozen until probate is granted. He would have to apply for probate.
Usually, you would create an executor account, whereby as each account, or whatever is closed, the money is transferred to the executor account. (prior to the distribution to any beneficiaries)
If she hasn't made a will, then someone can assume the executor role, but then all funds are distributed according to the rules of intestacy. In this case it sounds as though there is a will.

[DogsSausages]

The name and relationship of the informant is typed in by the person completing the certificate, he would have had to lie to that person at the time it was typed to have his name added and it would have to be signed. It cannot just be signed afterwards,

[YouokHun]

@MaggieFS

I agree this sounds dodgy, but with respect to the person named on the death certificate, they are signing to say they were present, they are signing to notify of the death. However they would have had a form from the doctor/hospital giving cause of death etc. which he would have needed, so how did he get those?

Also would he reasonably have presumed to be the executor? Your friend definitely needs legal support if not the police.

From recent memory, at the moment when someone dies nurses can certify death (for example if it was at home) and they give their initial form to the GP or doctor who has had recent contact. That form is then sent to the registrar who calls the next of kin to verify a few details before issuing the death certificate via the post. If she died in hospital then there’s even less contact with the paperwork at the moment because of Covid. So I am not sure what he would have signed or how he could claim to be present when she died (as there are very few people allowed into hospital so I’d have thought there would be a record).

I have, sadly, recent experience of this as the executor of my father’s estate. I would not have been able to close an account without a death certificate and I have had to verify myself as an executor. The only money released has been where it is in a joint account with my DM. Some banks have pretty high thresholds where they will release money but not to any old person. Perhaps he just wanted to close the accounts to stop your friend being able to access them? I’d be wanting to know if there were any transfers or withdrawals between the 11.30pm incident and the demand to return items. It sounds like you’ve not got the full/correct story though, but on the face of it it’s concerning and I would look to change the locks at the house.

[saraclara]

If he's the closest relative, it would be absolutely normal for him to register the death. There's nothing dodgy about that (apart from him apparently saying he was at the death). There's also nothing dodgy about freezing the accounts. It needs to be done to prevent criminal activity on them.

If the friend has seen the death certificate and it definitely says he was there, then she should inform the lawyer. It might be that she should then contact the registrar to report an inaccuracy. It doesn't make any difference to anything in practical terms, but even so, he gave false information.

[saraclara]

Oh, and if friend has the right to live in the house, I don't think he should be entering it without permission. Again, the lawyer should write to him to clarify this.

In fairness, I'd be uncomfortable about someone I didn't know living in the house of a deceased family member, among all that person's possessions. It's a tricky one.

[lottiegarbanzo]

It's possible he said he was present because he was in a 'giving them the answer he thought they wanted to hear' frame of mind. Sometimes people panic in the face of officialdom. Perhaps he was concerned to get the death registered and bank accounts frozen as fast as possible, because he is suspicious of OP's friend, or just wanted to do it himself so he knew it was done.

But the other obvious reason for claiming to have been there, is so that he can challenge the will, by spinning a story about having been closer to his aunt than the friend was, so being morally owed her house or money. That could get really sticky and nasty.

[skodadoda]

@knittingaddict

The man wouldn't have signed any death certificate that arrived though. That's not how it works. The paperwork is done in front of the registrar and only the registrar signs it. He may have signed other paperwork, but not the DC.

I think registering a death in lockdown has been different, mostly done by phone rather than in person.

[iolaus]

I signed for my dad's death certificate, I wasn't with him at the time of death, my mum was she couldn't face being the one to register his death

Being present at death is only ONE of the many qualifying factors to register a death

[Quitelikeacatslife]

If he has taken money from bank accounts and won't give it back presumably that can be deducted from his share of the estate ie- when house is sold.
She needs to be all over the detail though, her great aunt made her executor for a reason, to make sure her estate was handled according to her wishes.

[DogsSausages]

A suitably trained hospital nurse could verify a death, the doctor would issue a cause of death certificate then the Registrar issues the death certificate. Has this changed.