He lied on the death certificate - up to something?

[Justilou1]

I’m writing on behalf of a friend. She lives in England but neither of us are English. (Culturally not dissimilar, but some things are different...) She has been looking after her elderly great Aunt for over ten years while also working FT, but mostly as a companion until very recently, when this old lady’s health declined.... When she was working, she had district nurses visiting and Blue Birds (?) twice a day, so the lady’s cares we’re met and she wasn’t lonely. She sat with her at the hospital and held her hand for three days while she died. When she returned to the house (11:30pm!!) this lady’s nephew was there, saying that he was the executor of the estate, and he took everything from the filing cabinet and her handbag. He also tested his keys in the door locks. My friend thought to call the lady’s lawyer the next morning to advise that she had passed, only to discover that this man was NOT the executor, but SHE was... the lawyer contacted the man and advised that he had to return all the paperwork. He spent all week closing accounts (not sure he can do that, though - not that it matters if he doesn’t touch them, I suppose... unless he appoints himself a signatory or something, I guess...) AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!! WHY??? (*Also, he is supposed to be massively involved in some happy clappy church, too - pretty sure lying is not okay.) What the hell is he playing at?

He hadnt seen this old lady for three or more years, btw.

[HollowTalk]

So she told the nephew that his aunt had died and he went straight to the house?

[ThePluckOfTheCoward]

She needs to get the locks changed ASAP.

[knittingaddict]

@motheroftwoboys

death certificates DO state who was present at time of death. I do a lot of ancestry research and this is often really useful information. So basically the nephew has lied when he went to register the death? don't think it really matters who registers the death - my husband registered the death for both of my parents. It doesn't give them any legal claim on the estate. Under UK law he certainly would not have been able to access the bank account unless he was alreay named on it. It takes ages to get probate and you have to provide a lot of paperwork.

I was just about to say the same thing. As a family historian I have seen a lot of death certificates. They do have a column which often includes who was present at death.

[MrsClatterbuck]

Not sure how he closed the accounts. Yes he would have needed the death certificate as proof of death but banks also require if there is a will who the executor is which would be sight if the will and also I'd. Also if estatecis large and going to probate they need to sigt thevorobate which would also contain the name of the executor. Accounts can be closed under a document called a small estate indemnity and the amount varies from financial institution to financial institution. Here in NI it can only be used if the total value of the estate is 10k and under. This includes all assets and not just cash.
If he closed the accounts where are the monies as they would I presume be given to him. I think the police should be involved.

[ScreamingBeans]

Don't waste a single moment wondering what he's up to.

Just go to the police and let them investigate.

[wdmtthgcock]

This all sounds very garbled. Perhaps some facts are not quite correct because of the way your friend has re-told the story of what happened.

The bit about the death certificate sounds wrong. When someone dies you are provided with a form with cause of death on it signed by a doctor. You then take this to register the death at a Registry Office. They then issue the death certificate.

To close bank accounts etc you have to have a death certificate. Some utility companies need one too. You can't just phone up and close a bank account/get the money sent to your own account without the correct paperwork.
I'm not 100% sure but I think the money has to be paid out into the executor's account. Certainly when my Dad died I had to provide a death certificate and as the executor was a solicitor the money was paid out to him first and not to me. Only when everything was sorted (took over a year) was the money transferred to me.

Who is named as the beneficiary in the will?

There's something not right about this story so make sure your friend continues to stay in close contact with the solicitor and tell the solicitor that the man has closed bank accounts.

[TableFlowerss]

@Lovethewater

When my mum died I was surprised that a number of accounts were immediately paid out to me purely on receipt of the death certificate and me stating I was next of kin (which I was), however no proof of this required. All had their own thresholds for requiring grant of probate, copy of will etc but this was between £20k and £50k so I would not assume that the nephew has not been able to do anything. If he has 'closed' the accounts rather than them being frozen, then I would be very concerned that he already has the money. Your friend definitely needs to contact solicitor, police, registrar and banks ASAP.

But they wouldn’t have just given you it without signing some forms etc did they? Those forms that you signed were declarations to say that you are authorised to do so as you are the executor etc... and

If you got a grant of probate then the solicitor verified that the person is who they say they are and they are able to access the money.

The onus isn’t on the banks to make sure people are telling the truth when they sight the form etc... they will need photo ID and address verification so if it turned out to be fraudulent, they’re a very likely to get caught.

99% of cases are genuine anyway

[Ostara212]

@MrsClatterbuck

Not sure how he closed the accounts. Yes he would have needed the death certificate as proof of death but banks also require if there is a will who the executor is which would be sight if the will and also I'd. Also if estatecis large and going to probate they need to sigt thevorobate which would also contain the name of the executor. Accounts can be closed under a document called a small estate indemnity and the amount varies from financial institution to financial institution. Here in NI it can only be used if the total value of the estate is 10k and under. This includes all assets and not just cash.
If he closed the accounts where are the monies as they would I presume be given to him. I think the police should be involved.

He might have just frozen the accounts with the death cert.

Mention of the friend being "naive" sets off a lot of alarm bells, she might simply not understand what's happening.

[TableFlowerss]

So in this case OP needs to call police ASAP

[randomkey123]

It took nearly 2 weeks to get a death certificate issued when FIL died, and that was Pre-Covid times.

It sounds like a lot of confusion going on, and best left to the solicitor to deal with.

[MrsClatterbuck]

Also the banks could be culpablevif they didn't follow proper procedures. Your friend would be wise to let the solicitor deal with writing to the different financial institutions. When they realise they have released funds not to the executor or solicitor administering the estate but someone else panic stations will probably set in.

[knittingaddict]

The man wouldn't have signed any death certificate that arrived though. That's not how it works. The paperwork is done in front of the registrar and only the registrar signs it. He may have signed other paperwork, but not the DC.

[squeaver]

She should go, with the old lady's solicitor, to the police.

I'm somewhat amazed that the solicitor has not been more proactive about this.

There are some odd details to this story. POA is for someone who is alive, not dead. Are you sure you don't mean the solicitor is also an executor?

I don't think it explicitly states on a death certificate that you were present at the death?

Also, there's something funny about the bank account business. Unless he is an executor, no bank would allow him to do that. In my, very recent, experience you have to provide paperwork to show that you are the executor.

Agree with lottiegarbanzo, I'm afraid she shouldn't just leave the country now. She needs to take her role seriously.

[squeaver]

I had to send a copy of the will to the bank too, not just the death certificate.

Who is the beneficiary?

[DixonD]

@LadyWhistledownsQuill

Is there a will?

If she died intestate, would the nephew be in line to inherit under the laws of intestacy?

There is a will, hence her friend being the executor.

You can’t be a signatory on a deceased person’s bank account OP.

[DixonD]

If the bank have given him funds without evidence that he is entitled, they are in the wrong.

[TableFlowerss]

@motheroftwoboys

death certificates DO state who was present at time of death. I do a lot of ancestry research and this is often really useful information. So basically the nephew has lied when he went to register the death? don't think it really matters who registers the death - my husband registered the death for both of my parents. It doesn't give them any legal claim on the estate. Under UK law he certainly would not have been able to access the bank account unless he was alreay named on it. It takes ages to get probate and you have to provide a lot of paperwork.

No they don’t!! Perhaps histrionic ones but not present day ones!

[knittingaddict]

I suspect when the op says he signed the DC she meant that he declared on there that he was present at death, rather than actually signed it. Still illegal though.

[EverythingRuined]

It’s quite possible the nephew thought he was the executor?

[Brillig]

@JustLyra

Death certificates used to note if the informant was present at the death or not, but they haven’t for a long while.

No, they still do. My mother died last year and because of Covid the registration process took place over the phone. The registrar specifically asked if I was present at the death and the certificate records this. I'm looking at it right now.

OP, there wouldn't be anywhere for the potentially-dodgy relative to sign the certificate, though.

[Ostara212]

@EverythingRuined

It’s quite possible the nephew thought he was the executor?

It's quite possible the nephew is the executor!

[Gilly12345]

She needs to change the locks of the house and speak to the solicitor for advice.

Last resort the Police.

[knittingaddict]

No they don’t!! Perhaps histrionic ones but not present day ones!

I did wonder if things had changed. Does it not have "description of informant" on there anymore?

[diddl]

Change the locks?

On a house that isn't hers?

[lottiegarbanzo]

I have a feeling that the phrase Power of Attorney is used differently in the US from the UK. I think it may mean something like executor, to mean power over the estate. I remember calling someone, as executor, and being asked if I had POA. My 'no' gave them the impression I did not have power to request the info I was requesting, concerning a person who we both knew was dead. (Or maybe that person just happened to be confused).

In the UK, POA is acting on someone else's behalf while they're still alive but perhaps incapacitated.