He lied on the death certificate - up to something?

[Justilou1]

I’m writing on behalf of a friend. She lives in England but neither of us are English. (Culturally not dissimilar, but some things are different...) She has been looking after her elderly great Aunt for over ten years while also working FT, but mostly as a companion until very recently, when this old lady’s health declined.... When she was working, she had district nurses visiting and Blue Birds (?) twice a day, so the lady’s cares we’re met and she wasn’t lonely. She sat with her at the hospital and held her hand for three days while she died. When she returned to the house (11:30pm!!) this lady’s nephew was there, saying that he was the executor of the estate, and he took everything from the filing cabinet and her handbag. He also tested his keys in the door locks. My friend thought to call the lady’s lawyer the next morning to advise that she had passed, only to discover that this man was NOT the executor, but SHE was... the lawyer contacted the man and advised that he had to return all the paperwork. He spent all week closing accounts (not sure he can do that, though - not that it matters if he doesn’t touch them, I suppose... unless he appoints himself a signatory or something, I guess...) AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!! WHY??? (*Also, he is supposed to be massively involved in some happy clappy church, too - pretty sure lying is not okay.) What the hell is he playing at?

He hadnt seen this old lady for three or more years, btw.

[Lovethewater]

Having just checked my mum's death certificate, my sister is recorded as the informant and it also states she was 'present at death'.

[TwoAndAnOnion]

AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!!

I don't understand this bit. A doctor certifies the death, a person then takes the form to register the death. The death certificate does not say who was there at the time of death. Unless things are different under covid and you cant register in person?

[therocinante]

@Ostara212

I'm not sure you have the whole story here

Unless Covid has changed things, in England you'll get a medical certificate for the cause of death, then the death has to be registered officially.

I don't think the second form asks if anyone was there.

If the first one does, the hospital fill it in and they would not write down that someone attended who they've not even heard of.

You need the correct information before you can help.

I thought this - I've never heard of a death cert/medical cert that stated who was present when someone died... unless it was to acknowledge the person was in hospital (i.e. a doctor or nurse was present)?

Also OP, he won't have been able to do much with the accounts without a grant of probate, I don't think (unless there was a small amount in the accounts, and even then the bank would want a copy of the will showing him as executor).

[denverRegina]

So this man is your friends dad? Or her uncle? He hadn't seen the lady for 4 years but had keys to her house? All sounds very odd.

Are you sure that your friend has got it right or is giving you the full story?

[CovidSmart]

How did he learn that the aunt had died? I assume that your fiend went back to the house more or less straight away not days after the death.

[MaggieFS]

@MaggieFS

I agree this sounds dodgy, but with respect to the person named on the death certificate, they are signing to say they were present, they are signing to notify of the death. However they would have had a form from the doctor/hospital giving cause of death etc. which he would have needed, so how did he get those?

Also would he reasonably have presumed to be the executor? Your friend definitely needs legal support if not the police.

Need to correct myself - he is not signing to say he was present.

[motheroftwoboys]

death certificates DO state who was present at time of death. I do a lot of ancestry research and this is often really useful information. So basically the nephew has lied when he went to register the death? don't think it really matters who registers the death - my husband registered the death for both of my parents. It doesn't give them any legal claim on the estate. Under UK law he certainly would not have been able to access the bank account unless he was alreay named on it. It takes ages to get probate and you have to provide a lot of paperwork.

[DogsSausages]

There is nowhere on a death certificate for him to have signed that he was there, sounds very strange, especially if she died in hospital and he wasnt even there then . The doctor or nurse who verified her death wouldnt have written down who was there. The cause of death form from the hospital is in a sealed envelope only to be opened by the Registrar. Banks need a copy of an original death certificate to close accounts.

[ChicChaos]

I don't think you've got the whole story either OP, how does your friend know that he's closed accounts for instance?

[Unsure33]

I don't think within a week he would have been able to close the accounts . it seems there is a solicitor involved but if he has withdrawn money and is not an executor that will be a crime . Does not matter even if he had power of attorney - that ceases the moment someone dies .

[DogsSausages]

I have just looked at my family death certificates and there is definitely nowhere to sign who was present

[TwoAndAnOnion]

@DogsSausages

I have just looked at my family death certificates and there is definitely nowhere to sign who was present

Ditto - I have a stack of recent death certificates (1995 to date), no one have ever been annotated as present.

He would be able to close accounts unless probate had been granted OR he was already a joint account holder

[TwoAndAnOnion]

*would not, apologies

[HollowTalk]

What do you mean, he signed the death certificate?

[Justilou1]

There is definitely a will, and the solicitor is the POA (thank god!). I am on the other side of the planet, and it has nothing to do with me, other than trying to ensure that my friend doesn’t find herself shocked by somebody doing something dodgy. (She is a bit naive/tends to think too well of others when she has very little reason to - luckily is single.) As far as the contents of the will, I know that my friend was told that she was allowed to stay in the house for 6 months or until she found somewhere else. She wants to come home - she just didn’t want to leave this old lady alone with the vultures and Covid, etc. (She was in her late 90’s.) Once everything is settled she can come and stay with me or her sister for as long as she likes, and work here or there is no problem for her.

[LadyWhistledownsQuill]

If the friend is an executor, it would suggest that their is a will as they would need to have something to execute.

Good point.

It all seems very odd. I'm wondering if the nephew is hoping she died intestate (if he'd be a beneficiary under the rules of intestacy) or if he's hoping he can somehow get her will declared invalid so it reverts to the laws of intestacy / a previous will.

People do some odd things around inheritances and it really can bring out the worst in people.

[lottiegarbanzo]

What do you mean 'sign the death certificate'? Death certs are signed by a registrar, with a cause of death provided by a doctor or coroner. You register a death in a similar way to registering a birth. You have to make an appointment, which takes a few days to a couple of weeks, not same day. They don't say anything about who was there and aren't signed by relatives.

You need a death cert to close a bank account.

That confusion aside, she needs to talk to the solicitor, then call the police, quickly.

[endofthelinefinally]

It is a criminal offence to put false information on a death certificate.

[JustLyra]

Death certificates used to note if the informant was present at the death or not, but they haven’t for a long while.

[endofthelinefinally]

Presumably the nephew told the registrar that he was present and the NOK. I don't think it is relevant though.

[diddl]

POA ends when someone dies.

[DogsSausages]

It makes no difference now if the solicitor had poa as it stops when someone dies. If the solicitor has the Will then it can be opened and given to your friend.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Your friend needs to be aware that legally, as executor, she has a responsibility to execute the will legally and properly. Turning a blind eye, ignoring someone else's skulduggery, even behaving naively, is not an option.

Practically, she needs to nip this in the bud before it goes further and creates more trouble and work for her.

She is the one who will be picking up the pieces. Being executor is a serious responsibility and not a small task. It's a lot of work, with a high level of personal responsibility attached.

[Ostara212]

@Justilou1

There is definitely a will, and the solicitor is the POA (thank god!). I am on the other side of the planet, and it has nothing to do with me, other than trying to ensure that my friend doesn’t find herself shocked by somebody doing something dodgy. (She is a bit naive/tends to think too well of others when she has very little reason to - luckily is single.) As far as the contents of the will, I know that my friend was told that she was allowed to stay in the house for 6 months or until she found somewhere else. She wants to come home - she just didn’t want to leave this old lady alone with the vultures and Covid, etc. (She was in her late 90’s.) Once everything is settled she can come and stay with me or her sister for as long as she likes, and work here or there is no problem for her.

POA irrelevant

Is the solicitor the executor?

If the friend was told she can stay for 6 months etc then my first thought is she is not a beneficiary of the will.

If your friend is "naive" as you say, then maybe the nephew has done everything legally and she just doesn't understand.

I've seen a lot of nonsense occur around grandfather's estate which was all based on misunderstanding and people who thought they should be in the will or should get more etc.

[Ostara212]

If your friend really has been appointed as executor then she should be able to see the will.