He lied on the death certificate - up to something?

[Justilou1]

I’m writing on behalf of a friend. She lives in England but neither of us are English. (Culturally not dissimilar, but some things are different...) She has been looking after her elderly great Aunt for over ten years while also working FT, but mostly as a companion until very recently, when this old lady’s health declined.... When she was working, she had district nurses visiting and Blue Birds (?) twice a day, so the lady’s cares we’re met and she wasn’t lonely. She sat with her at the hospital and held her hand for three days while she died. When she returned to the house (11:30pm!!) this lady’s nephew was there, saying that he was the executor of the estate, and he took everything from the filing cabinet and her handbag. He also tested his keys in the door locks. My friend thought to call the lady’s lawyer the next morning to advise that she had passed, only to discover that this man was NOT the executor, but SHE was... the lawyer contacted the man and advised that he had to return all the paperwork. He spent all week closing accounts (not sure he can do that, though - not that it matters if he doesn’t touch them, I suppose... unless he appoints himself a signatory or something, I guess...) AND when the death certificate arrived, he signed it to say that he was with her at the time she died!!! WHY??? (*Also, he is supposed to be massively involved in some happy clappy church, too - pretty sure lying is not okay.) What the hell is he playing at?

He hadnt seen this old lady for three or more years, btw.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Oh also, your friend must not sit back and imagine the solicitor who holds the will, will deal with anything.

They will not. They'll give the will to the executor. That is all.

If she wants to appoint a solicitor to help her file for probate, that's her choice, her action to take.

[bunburyscucumbersandwich]

I've just looked at my dm death certificate and it does say my name, daughter and present at death.

She died last year, so they are still doing it.

[ElphabaTWitch]

Think he put his name on there to try to add weight to his executor claim. Hospital would easily verify this just isn’t true.
I woild contact the lawyer dealing and perhaps the police as well. He’s after her money or property I think.

[MBDBBB]

Hello! I’m a probate solicitor.

Re the death certificate there is a box in it which is labelled “qualification” and it shows what qualifies the person to be registering death. Sometimes it shows the relationship (eg son/daughter), it states they were present at death if that was the case. I have sometimes personally registered deaths where the deceased died with no family and it says that my qualification to register is “causing the body to be cremated” because I was also arranging the funeral. Falsifying this information is clearly dodgy but it doesn’t in itself give him the right to anything.

Power of Attorney is irrelevant as this is a lifetime appointment and it ends on death.

The executor is the person legally entitled to deal with a person’s estate and assets. If your friend is appointed as executor she needs to speak to the solicitor holding the Will and take action immediately. Legal fees are payable from the estate itself so she won’t personally be liable to pay the solicitor if this is a concern.

If the bank has released funds to him he has been acting fraudulently and action can be taken against him to claim the monies back. If he felt he had a right over anything in the estate, or if he felt that the Will was not valid, there are correct and legal channels to go down to challenge it. Taking her paperwork etc is not the way to go.

I hope she gets it sorted out.

[justasking111]

Your friend may be confused, we were advised to get at least 8 death certificate copies, we had to write to every single bank, utility with a copy to even begin to get the ball rolling.

[knittingaddict]

@bunburyscucumbersandwich

I've just looked at my dm death certificate and it does say my name, daughter and present at death.

She died last year, so they are still doing it.

We've just fished out the DC of my mil and it doesn't say present at death. It just has name of informant, but he wasn't present at her death, so maybe they add that as a note if relevant.

[knittingaddict]

Forgot to say that it may say who was present at death on the medical certificate, but that was handed in to the registrar.

[Justilou1]

I’m going to speak to her shortly and let her know that he may very well have access to money. He has declared himself NOK. (She didn’t actually have one.) Suspect that’s the whole point. I don’t think the estate is massive - I have no idea. I imagine the house will be sold. I know that my friend and her son were both made beneficiaries as was this man. My friend doesn’t give a shit, tbh. She just doesn’t like the underhanded behaviour (or the fact that he didn’t pick up a phone to call the lady or visit in the last three years, even when he knew her health was declining, etc....)

[lottiegarbanzo]

The thing is, if she'd died intestate, the next of kin would inherit (shared equally if more than one), no question.

She has a will, which will state who inherits.

Either way, there is no room for interpretation by an executor.

So, either he was lying for the purpose of immediate theft (obviously criminal), and/or he was setting the scene to challenge the will in court, claim he was far closer and more helpful than he was, that OP's friend was trying to inveigle her way into the lady's favour etc.

Either way, police now, to nip a potentially very messy and unpleasant situation in the bud, plus to recover anything he has managed to steal.

[knittingaddict]

@MBDBBB

Hello! I’m a probate solicitor.

Re the death certificate there is a box in it which is labelled “qualification” and it shows what qualifies the person to be registering death. Sometimes it shows the relationship (eg son/daughter), it states they were present at death if that was the case. I have sometimes personally registered deaths where the deceased died with no family and it says that my qualification to register is “causing the body to be cremated” because I was also arranging the funeral. Falsifying this information is clearly dodgy but it doesn’t in itself give him the right to anything.

Power of Attorney is irrelevant as this is a lifetime appointment and it ends on death.

The executor is the person legally entitled to deal with a person’s estate and assets. If your friend is appointed as executor she needs to speak to the solicitor holding the Will and take action immediately. Legal fees are payable from the estate itself so she won’t personally be liable to pay the solicitor if this is a concern.

If the bank has released funds to him he has been acting fraudulently and action can be taken against him to claim the monies back. If he felt he had a right over anything in the estate, or if he felt that the Will was not valid, there are correct and legal channels to go down to challenge it. Taking her paperwork etc is not the way to go.

I hope she gets it sorted out.

That's a very helpful reply. I did know that saying you were present at death didn't give any additional powers to act. It's a very strange story with lots of question marks over the secondhand information.

[nowlook]

@MBDBBB

Hello! I’m a probate solicitor.

Re the death certificate there is a box in it which is labelled “qualification” and it shows what qualifies the person to be registering death. Sometimes it shows the relationship (eg son/daughter), it states they were present at death if that was the case. I have sometimes personally registered deaths where the deceased died with no family and it says that my qualification to register is “causing the body to be cremated” because I was also arranging the funeral. Falsifying this information is clearly dodgy but it doesn’t in itself give him the right to anything.

Power of Attorney is irrelevant as this is a lifetime appointment and it ends on death.

The executor is the person legally entitled to deal with a person’s estate and assets. If your friend is appointed as executor she needs to speak to the solicitor holding the Will and take action immediately. Legal fees are payable from the estate itself so she won’t personally be liable to pay the solicitor if this is a concern.

If the bank has released funds to him he has been acting fraudulently and action can be taken against him to claim the monies back. If he felt he had a right over anything in the estate, or if he felt that the Will was not valid, there are correct and legal channels to go down to challenge it. Taking her paperwork etc is not the way to go.

I hope she gets it sorted out.

Solid advice here from an expert in the relevant area of law, OP.

[Brillig]

@lottiegarbanzo

I have a feeling that the phrase Power of Attorney is used differently in the US from the UK. I think it may mean something like executor, to mean power over the estate. I remember calling someone, as executor, and being asked if I had POA. My 'no' gave them the impression I did not have power to request the info I was requesting, concerning a person who we both knew was dead. (Or maybe that person just happened to be confused).

In the UK, POA is acting on someone else's behalf while they're still alive but perhaps incapacitated.

I'm still going through all this at the moment (see my post above) so unfortunately I do know a bit about it. In the UK yes, a POA can be held by someone else if their relative (for eg) lacks capacity to make decisions about their financial affairs or about their health. So a death would terminate the immediate need for a POA.

However, when probate is applied for, the executor will be asked whether a POA existed and if it did, will be required to supply a copy.

With a bank account, many banks will release funds before probate is granted if the deceased's balance is below a certain level. Official documents do have to be supplied, obviously (death certificate, proof of identity of the executor/s, and a declaration made) but it's quite a straightforward process and can all be done online at the moment.

I'd be very wary of this man's actions.

[knittingaddict]

Declaring yourself NOK after death is pretty meaningless to the process of managing an estate if there is a will with named executors.

[lottiegarbanzo]

Your friend doesn't have the option 'not to give a shit'. Being executor is a serious task. If she wants to renounce that task and hand it over to someone else, there is a legal process, a bit of form filling to go through.

[TwoAndAnOnion]

@randomkey123

It took nearly 2 weeks to get a death certificate issued when FIL died, and that was Pre-Covid times.

It sounds like a lot of confusion going on, and best left to the solicitor to deal with.

Register the death within 5 days (8 days in Scotland) - this includes weekends and bank holidays.

You’ll get a ‘certificate for a burial’ to give to the funeral director, or an application for cremation which you need to complete and give to the crematorium.

You must do one of these before the funeral can take place.


www.gov.uk/after-a-death

[Almostlegible]

Perhaps the nephew is the sole beneficiary and is aware of this, but is getting this mixed up with being the executor.
Your friend needs to see the will.

[TabbyBeast]

My understanding is that there are certain qualifiers which allow someone to register a death; one of them is being present at the death.

The solicitor should be dealing with everything else regarding the nephew as the solicitor should know who the beneficiaries and executors are.

[TabbyBeast]

cross post with pp!

[Newkitchen123]

@JustLyra

Death certificates used to note if the informant was present at the death or not, but they haven’t for a long while.

I've been present at four deaths. I've registered all four of those. On each death certificate it says I was present. The most recent was a year ago

[MBDBBB]

The solicitors will only immediately act if they themselves are named as executors or if they have been instructed to do so by the executor named in the Will. Just because they hold the Will doesn’t mean they are instructed to act. The executor is free to take the Will and deal with the estate themselves or take it to another solicitor of their choosing.

[Tambora]

@Justilou1

I’m going to speak to her shortly and let her know that he may very well have access to money. He has declared himself NOK. (She didn’t actually have one.) Suspect that’s the whole point. I don’t think the estate is massive - I have no idea. I imagine the house will be sold. I know that my friend and her son were both made beneficiaries as was this man. My friend doesn’t give a shit, tbh. She just doesn’t like the underhanded behaviour (or the fact that he didn’t pick up a phone to call the lady or visit in the last three years, even when he knew her health was declining, etc....)

He has declared himself NOK. (She didn't actually have one.)

People very often name someone as their NOK on medical records etc. However even if she didn't do that, she did have next of kin if she had living relatives. The closest relation is the NOK. Of course, this may be joint, if she had several surviving nephews or nieces they would all equally be NOK.

This person has broken the law by saying that he was present at the death. If you know which register office the death was registered at, then your friend needs to contact the registrar as a matter of urgency and tell them that she was present at the death and this other person wasn't.

He has also committed offences by doing such things as closing bank accounts. He might not even be named in the will, but even if he is, there may be other beneficiaries too, and he cannot just help himself to whatever money or belongings he wants. The executor (in this case a solicitor) should be in charge of all that, and will distribute the bequests at the end of the process.

[Waspie]

None of this makes sense. Being next of kin is irrelevant. The nephew can declare himself the queen of sheba and it wouldn't make an iota of difference to the legal process.

Your friend "doesn't give a shit" about the woman she has been companion to and nursed for the last 10 years? Seriously? She will have to "give a shit" if she is the executor of her estate, or find someone else (like the deceased's solicitor) to do it for her. As others have said, executing an estate is a big responsibility.

I've registered two deaths in the past year. I wasn't present on either occasion. A medical certificate was provided and I registered the deaths with the registrar. I was not the official next of kin for either of these people.

[SpiderinaWingMirror]

As long as her will is safely lodged with the solicitor that's the most important thing. What would concern me is if he removed a will including others as beneficiaries if he stood to inherit the whole shebang if she died intestate. Big old flaw of the entire system really.

[Zzelda]

@Waspie

None of this makes sense. Being next of kin is irrelevant. The nephew can declare himself the queen of sheba and it wouldn't make an iota of difference to the legal process.

Your friend "doesn't give a shit" about the woman she has been companion to and nursed for the last 10 years? Seriously? She will have to "give a shit" if she is the executor of her estate, or find someone else (like the deceased's solicitor) to do it for her. As others have said, executing an estate is a big responsibility.

I've registered two deaths in the past year. I wasn't present on either occasion. A medical certificate was provided and I registered the deaths with the registrar. I was not the official next of kin for either of these people.

That really isn't fair to OP or her friend. I read that as saying she doesn't give a shit about inheriting any of the deceased's estate, not that she doesn't care about the deceased or doing right in terms of carrying out her wishes.

[HollowTalk]

But she died in hospital and they would issue the death certificate. He wouldn't be able to just sign a death certificate!