To think it’s so wrong that if you have money you can jump NHS waiting lists?

[ImaHogg]

I have some gynae issues. I had a scan in September 2020 and a telephone consultation with a gynaecologist. I was told that I need a hysteroscopy with a biopsy and to remove some polyps.
Obviously due to Covid I, alongside so many others am now on a waiting list. I (and my gp) have chased many times but just get told they have absolutely no idea when my procedure will be.
I am getting problems from the issues I have and have had enough so rang my local private hospital to ask if they do this procedure (can not really afford to go private but I am getting desperate and wanted to know how much it may be). I was told they don’t do this procedure at this hospital but there may be an ‘alternative’! They would talk to the gynaecologist and get back to me.
They rung back to say they had spoken with the gynaecologist and he would be happy for me to have a consultation at the private hospital (£150) then I would need an ultra sound scan (I would have to have this done at the private hospital even though I have a copy of the NHS one from September, same gynaecologist), then he would be able to do the hysteroscopy but at my local NHS hospital - wtf!!
So basically for a fee of £2000 I can skip the NHS waiting list, skip the luxury surroundings of the private hospital and have the same procedure at the same NHS hospital that I have currently been on a 8 month waiting list.
So if you have money you can push back NHS waiting lists even further by flashing the cash!

This is the fault of appalling NHS management. The NHS is no longer fit for purpose - they have much better systems abroad.

We should scrap the NHS and go for another model, better run.

@QueenOfPain

The misunderstandings and hand wringing on this thread are infuriating.

People are paying to skip the NHS investigation/diagnostic bottle neck, which means they can then be added to a much shorter “diagnosed and ready for surgery imminently” list. They aren’t taking anything from anyone because the surgeon arranges the investigations and diagnosis in his own time at considerable expense to the “customer”. The other patients on the “awaiting investigations/diagnosis” queue are better off because there’s one less person in their part of the queue.

I’m a nurse in the NHS, a labour voter and staunch socialist. I also paid £13k for private surgery in Jan this year, I got referred for the same surgery on the NHS but the waiting time was potentially up to 4 years. I’d do it all again, I could afford it and I got my treatment, at absolutely no expense to the NHS.

My private surgeon also works in the NHS as a consultant upper GI surgeon specialising in gastro cancers. My paid for procedure doesn’t take away from his normal patients. My surgery was done on his NHS day off, he came to see me at 6am the next morning in the private hospital before he went to his NHS job at his normal start time. All of my follow up phone calls have taken place outside of normal business hours in his own time.

I can’t believe people think there is any case at all for restricting clinicians from using their skills outside of their NHS contracted work. If that’s the case, why should anyone be allowed to do any extra work of any kind? They’re humans, free agents.

Well said @QueenOfPain . I hope you're recovered now.

@Irishterrier

This is the fault of appalling NHS management. The NHS is no longer fit for purpose - they have much better systems abroad.

We should scrap the NHS and go for another model, better run.

What level of management do you blame?

Yeah, this has always been the case. Lots of consultants take on private work on the side. Dodgy and unethical but they do it.
I totally disagree with this. They do their long and arduous training, they work in the NHS while they do it and usually beyond. To become experts with ongoing training and all the latest tech and equipment they do private work which is actually bloody hard work but they get well compensated for it

We could also stop funding things that were never intended as a part of the NHS, lets start with cosmetic procedures

Already stopped, along with chiropody, ear syringing, the majority of ivf - there’s a pretty long list.

@picturesandpickles

It is part of the systematic and deliberate undermining of the NHS.

NHS used to be the gold standard, so it couldn't politically be privatised. It will take time but by pushing those who can afford it to private, this both diverst money out of the NHS system and reduces societal support for the NHS itself.

UK is drifting towards the US model, of decent health care if you can pay and shit healthcare if you can't. This is intentional and a political choice.

Sadly I agree.

There are some things you are forced to go private for. My baby had severe infected eczema and I was seeing a GP with “special interest” twice a week in his clinic at one point due to the severity but things were not improving. We were not referred to a dermatologist as the NHS just does not fund many as it does not see eczema as a priority. Possibly the GP thought he could deal with it himself and was stubborn, I don’t know but this was timely problem that need dealing with urgently. My baby’s skin was falling off, his entire body was angry and red and he looked like a burns victim. He wasn’t sleeping at all and was constantly distraught. So yes I paid to see a top dermatologist who immediately recognized his severity and after treating him privately ( finally cleared the infection after two course of antibiotics having already been on several) put him into his own nhs clinic where we had a two hour lesson with his eczema nurse. Do I feel guilty for jumping the queue? No. I did what I had to do.

@Blossomtoes I have no idea where the money goes, however, I do know that no extra lists are run or that no extra NHS patients are fitted in to make up for the slots that the PP's have filled. Like a previous poster mentioned PP are put first on the list and this can sometimes lead to NHS patients being cancelled.

Funny if someone who has a bit of money is wanting to use the nhs people seem to think they “should be paying for private care” anyway.

Can’t win.

I have just had an operation privately.
Thank goodness for that initial consultation, I went out of desperation as my GP was not interested.
Following my initial consultation I was admitted directly to NHS hospital as an emergency for treatment.

The private consultant was the same person as the NHS consultant and I saw him on the wards the next day.

The waiting list for the operation was over a year. Then as covid impacted they cancelled the operations. I was classed as urgent and the only people ahead of me were having the operation to deal with cancer, I cannot imagine what this was like for those women.

Life was not bearable for me to live and work and look after my children as a lone parent.
I paid for the operation. When I booked it my consultant apologised to me and said he felt like they were robbing me of my right to treatment on the NHS.

I still think of those ladies on the waiting list, the service is not fit for purpose for them. I feel guilty I was able to access treatment, on the other hand I am off the list and someone moves up into my place.
All private appointment were in the evening when the consultant had finished at the NHs hospital.

i am in severe pain with hip osteroarthritis and is it affecting my life so much - getting to see an a consultant is taking months and as for the waiting for surgery it could be years. i should not have to pay for the operation as i have paid into the system for over 70 years (still working) but what alternative do i have - wait in extreme pain with no quality of life for the remainder of whatever life i have - operation more of an issue the older i get.

i know that i will have to pay when i have paid once.

the nhs is not fit for purpose and it needs complete overhaul which no government seems prepared to tackle - it just larger and larger with money spent with no accountability. in our area we now have group chief executives being recruited when we already have seperate chief executive of 2 hospitals. more high salaries and all the staff ro go with it.

the nhs just carries on not coping and not managing peoples expectations.

lh

I paid privately for brain scan, and private opticians, 2 in fact, all was well. The nhs waiting list is too long, it took 12 weeks from my gp to be referred, I still await that if I need it, when I’ve no idea.
Needed to know if it was optician and could be sorted
Tho being mild bi polar, I have brain to eye issues, so physiatrist Monday, drugs only option now.

yes we need a better system like in france - we are all paying in and
do not get the service and treatment when we should. if i paid into a private health scheme and they told me that i had to wait months to see a consultant and then a 3 year waiting list for treatment i would be taking them to court. the nhs is not free as some people seem to believe the public are paying billions into the system. it is virtually impossible to get nhs dental work band 3 now - some people and children are waiting years to see a nhs dentist in some areas.

the nhs is failing millions of people daily.

lh

@Thislittlefinger123

But you wouldn't be getting the procedure done by the NHS??

You might actually. Dh once paid to see a consultant privately but had the relevant tests done on the nhs. There wasnt a waiting list for the tests you see, just for the initial consultant's appointment. If the tests had shown a problem (this was a cancer scare) he would have been treated on the nhs.

@ImaHogg

For clarification, I enquired at the private hospital as that is where I thought I would have the procedure, I never thought for a second it would be at an NHS hospital. Surely if I were to pay privately and then go to my local NHS hospital that is taking the time slot of someone who could be an NHS patient?

The hospital may have a pp wing/ward used exclusively for non-nhs patients. Virtually all nhs consultants have tim allocated in their working week for private consultations. It's part of the bargain of working for nhs.

If something goes wrong you're better off in an NHS hospital privately I've been told. Our health board in Wales rations treatment to save money it's bad for staff morale the consultants theatre staff are frustrated by this. Ditto MRI, cat scans which should be used much more.

@Hypie

Patient A (private), Patient B (NHS). They both have the same condition and need the same treatment.

Patient A calls the consultants private secretary and gets their initial appointment in 1 week. Patient B goes to the GP and is referred to the consultant on the NHS. 1st appointment is 18 weeks later (our service is currently seeing patients at 18 weeks for 1st appointment)

Patient A needs a CT scan. She has this in 1 week privately. Patient B needs a CT scan, she waits 10 weeks after her 1st appointment.

Patient A is then added to the NHS waiting list and waits 20 weeks for her surgery. Patient B is added to the NHS waiting list and also waits 20 weeks for her surgery.

Patient A total wait time 22 weeks
Patient B total wait time 48 weeks

Patient A hasn’t bumped an NHS patient off the list, they’ve just got on it sooner than they would have if they hadn’t gone private in the initial stages.

Also Patient A may choose to stay private for her surgery. The consultant could then pay the NHS for a theatre slot and patient A is operated on at an NHS hospital but has paid for this. Their total wait time would then be around 6-8 weeks.

This theatre slot WOULD NOT BE TAKEN FROM AN NHS PATIENT. Services guard their templated theatre slots with their lives. I have 5 all day lists a week. The idea that a consultant could pay to do a private patient on one of them just wouldn’t happen. They can pay to use an empty theatre at the weekend (although we are increasingly putting extra lists on for NHS patients to clear the backlog at the weekend). Or they could pay to use a theatre slot that a service has “dropped” because of staffing or governance. They cannot buy NHS lists when they choose

Excellent explanation. Thank you

Oh great, a ghost thread

Considering the NHS is struggling, the more people who choose private the less pressure on the NHS and the shorter the waiting times.

Why should someone have to wait on a list for surgery if they have the savings to pay for it and want to spend money on their healthcare? Saying it’s not fair is like saying everyone should live in the same size houses regardless of income or savings or lifestyle choices.

Some private hospitals offer payment plans.

Some people take out health insurance or get it via work.

A lot of people who can afford private surgery aren’t ‘lucky’ they earned the money and saved wisely, or work hard in difficult but well paying jobs. Maybe they prioritise healthcare and savings over things like cars, holidays, having a big family, splashing out on material things?

I had the opposite experience—saw an NHS consultant for my varicose veins and he suggested I see him privately to have the surgery done years sooner.
I had insurance through work to pay for it. Saved the NHS time/money and a nicer experience for me. The private hospital was like staying in a lovely hotel! I didn't want to leave.

I think that’s true and I was advised to go to Nhs for maternity services as I had a high risk pregnancy - and it was just as well, I really needed it!

You will find that even though the operation is at an NHS hospital that the procedure is being done privately (that is - the Surgeon is hiring the NHS facilities in order to do your operation). You will also find that you will be probably be scheduled for a Saturday morning (again - at a time when the NHS don't normally schedule in patients)

My DH is a consultant in the NHS.

He also does private work on his days off. He is flooded with requests for private work. He could quite happily and legitimately leave the NHS and work his whole week in the local private hospital.

The NHS does not own him or his skills. He chooses to work for them.

I think some posters completely fail to understand this. Perhaps we should be happy and relieved that consultants are still happy to work for the NHS rather than carping about restricting where they can work.

If the same consultant is doing the procedure ‘private’ but using the nhs hospitals and facilities to do their ‘private’ work, then they are effectively using the facilities and blocking them from being used by and for nhs patients. So therefore, it’s a false narrative. They are not making the waiting list shorter. They are effectively bumping someone further up the list for an extortionate fee, and bumping someone in nhs further down. Hence the reason they can’t tell you when you will get your procedure on nhs. And if they can bump enough people into private care, then they will scrap the nhs altogether, which is what they’ve been trying and failing to do for years.

I appreciate the nhs doesn’t ‘own’ a dr or consultant. In much the same way no one’s employer ‘owns’ them. But it does say something when consultants have the capacity to do both, but the nhs can’t get consultants to work full time. Why can’t the nhs have dedicated nhs consultants whose contract states they can’t bugger off and do private work? Why can’t the nhs have appropriate contracts where consultant would want to work full time and commit themselves to helping people who can’t just throw money at their problems to make them go away? Because they want to privatise the nhs…… we’re going down the drains where healthcare is concerned in the uk. And only people with plenty of dosh can afford not to be affected by it.