To think it’s so wrong that if you have money you can jump NHS waiting lists?

[ImaHogg]

I have some gynae issues. I had a scan in September 2020 and a telephone consultation with a gynaecologist. I was told that I need a hysteroscopy with a biopsy and to remove some polyps.
Obviously due to Covid I, alongside so many others am now on a waiting list. I (and my gp) have chased many times but just get told they have absolutely no idea when my procedure will be.
I am getting problems from the issues I have and have had enough so rang my local private hospital to ask if they do this procedure (can not really afford to go private but I am getting desperate and wanted to know how much it may be). I was told they don’t do this procedure at this hospital but there may be an ‘alternative’! They would talk to the gynaecologist and get back to me.
They rung back to say they had spoken with the gynaecologist and he would be happy for me to have a consultation at the private hospital (£150) then I would need an ultra sound scan (I would have to have this done at the private hospital even though I have a copy of the NHS one from September, same gynaecologist), then he would be able to do the hysteroscopy but at my local NHS hospital - wtf!!
So basically for a fee of £2000 I can skip the NHS waiting list, skip the luxury surroundings of the private hospital and have the same procedure at the same NHS hospital that I have currently been on a 8 month waiting list.
So if you have money you can push back NHS waiting lists even further by flashing the cash!

Not sure if this has been mentioned but, for the people saying private work is only carried out on the surgeons off days, they're wrong.
Our private patients were seen during the normal working week. The private patients were always supposed to be seen first, on both morning and afternoon lists. Which means that if there were complications or surgery took longer than expected, the NHS patients who were still waiting were told to go home and wait for rescheduling. It was rare but it did happen.
We also got a little lecture about being extra polite to the private patients.

@Minezatea

I think it's morally wrong for the richer to get better healthcare, but a consequence of people not wanting to fund the NHS more.

I'm not rich but I have private healthcare through work. A few years ago I had pancreatitis and needed my gallbladder removed urgently so I went private rather than wait for the NHS. I know some people wouldn't approve but I didn't feel remotely guilty as it was that or suffer and potentially die (the consultant told me that was a possibility if it flared up again).

This has happened since forever. I used to work in an NHS outpatient clinic. People pay privately for a consultation at a private hospital, then would be added to end of and NHS outpatient clinic to get a date for operations or treatments. They were definitely jumping the queue.

One consultant I worked with had two NHS colposcopy clinics every week. At the end of the NHS list he’d fit in two or three private patients because, at that time, the private hospital didn’t do colposcopy. It used up all my lunch break. He’d get paid, but I didn’t see a penny of it

This is very common. I went private to be seen quickly and then asked to be re-referred back into the NHS.

I paid to go private.

I started having epileptic fits out of the blue. Went to A&E on several occasions. Had an MRI which showed up 'something' and referred me to the Neurologist. Was told this could take between 6 to 9 months. All while having a few fits a week.

Took my MRI a few days later to a Neuro specialist where I was prescribed epileptic medication (which my GP filled for me). Haven't had a fit since. He also put me onto his NHS list and I was seen on the NHS 4 months later.

Best £220 I have ever spent.

This is normal. Consultant is contracted to work X hours per week for the NHS. He can then work extra Y hours privately to make more income. By paying the £2k you are making the NHS queue shorter as you're getting treatment during his Y hours rather than NHS hours.

Lots of dentists do a mixture of NHS and private patients too.

@RestUp

I paid to go private. I started having epileptic fits out of the blue. Went to A&E on several occasions. Had an MRI which showed up 'something' and referred me to the Neurologist. Was told this could take between 6 to 9 months. All while having a few fits a week.

Took my MRI a few days later to a Neuro specialist where I was prescribed epileptic medication (which my GP filled for me). Haven't had a fit since. He also put me onto his NHS list and I was seen on the NHS 4 months later.

Best £220 I have ever spent.

This basically sums it up.

You're paying for fast effective triage.

If you know what your issue is than it's a no brainier to pay to cut out the reception dragons, and other inefficiencies.

Then your GP/nurse registrar can spend their time more effectively on someone else and the dragons can chew a wasp.

@camaleon

I am obviously not explaining myself well if this is what you understand from my messages *@roboticcarrot*.

I took it the same way as roboticarrot. PAs are set and agreed at the outset. If a consultant subsequently reduces their sessions, they will be paid less and that frees up funding towards another post. If they take up a post at say 50% of wte, then the NHS isn't paying them for the rest of their time in private practice and NHS funding will still be available to appoint another person to fulfill the remainder of the sessions.

OP, I suspect you are confusing everything. That private hospital doesn’t carry out the procedure, so they asked the consultant who can do it in his private practice at the nhs hospital. Most nhs hospitals have a private care wing.

Or as already mentioned, some will have access to rooms on Saturdays. Auxiliary staff are usually nhs but getting extra pay for this work.

You are not going to get the surgery as an nhs patient.

@NoSquirrels

We could all pay more taxes and stop bloody voting Tory as a country and then the NHS might have a fighting chance. Most people don’t want to pay higher taxes.

We could also stop funding things that were never intended as a part of the NHS, lets start with cosmetic procedures.

It’s wrong but I’m so glad it happens and I wish I had known about this years ago

Some years ago a friend's aunt was on the NHS waiting list for (I think) a routine eye operation. She had plenty of money and could easily have afforded to go private, but refused, because (to use her own words) "If I do that, it isn't fair on those who can't afford it."

We're still trying to work out the logic behind this.

DH had to go private for an operation, the consultant only offered the procedure on one Sunday a month so I presume they worked for the NHS. If we had waited for DH to be seen by the NHS, we had advised it would have been years and they might have even decided to “manage” his condition rather than cure it, all the while his condition getting worse. I don’t have a problem with doctors taking some of their own time to offer to see people privately, it’s just a shame that depending on a persons financial situation and the state of the NHS, outcomes can be massively different depending on the route you take. DH had already had the operation and recovered by the time we got the first initial consultation letter from the NHS

I waited 18 months on an NHS waiting list. In the end went private and saw an eye consultant who was the NHS consultant I was waiting for on the NHS. He said I needed urgent surgery and asked how long I had been waiting to see him, when I told him 18 months he was shocked given the urgency and booked me into his NHS clinic that same week. I had surgery the same month.
£195 well spent. It saved my sight 🧐

Waiting for a tooth extraction on the NHS for 1 year, had I gone private, £400 done within a week!

The misunderstandings and hand wringing on this thread are infuriating.

People are paying to skip the NHS investigation/diagnostic bottle neck, which means they can then be added to a much shorter “diagnosed and ready for surgery imminently” list. They aren’t taking anything from anyone because the surgeon arranges the investigations and diagnosis in his own time at considerable expense to the “customer”. The other patients on the “awaiting investigations/diagnosis” queue are better off because there’s one less person in their part of the queue.

I’m a nurse in the NHS, a labour voter and staunch socialist. I also paid £13k for private surgery in Jan this year, I got referred for the same surgery on the NHS but the waiting time was potentially up to 4 years. I’d do it all again, I could afford it and I got my treatment, at absolutely no expense to the NHS.

My private surgeon also works in the NHS as a consultant upper GI surgeon specialising in gastro cancers. My paid for procedure doesn’t take away from his normal patients. My surgery was done on his NHS day off, he came to see me at 6am the next morning in the private hospital before he went to his NHS job at his normal start time. All of my follow up phone calls have taken place outside of normal business hours in his own time.

I can’t believe people think there is any case at all for restricting clinicians from using their skills outside of their NHS contracted work. If that’s the case, why should anyone be allowed to do any extra work of any kind? They’re humans, free agents.

@Masterblasterjammin

The thing I find a bit frustrating about this is that the Consultant is being paid the private fees to do the job on NHS premises, and potentially the anaesthetist. However, the scrub nurses, recovery nurses, ward nurses, domestics, radiographers, lab team - basically anyone else - are still NHS staff, getting their normal low pay, for also looking after a private patient.

The NHS charges to cover x-rays, pathology, nursing, accommodation, theatre fees, consumables, drugs etc. The staff might get paid the same but presumably they could choose to work in the private sector if it pays more. But the NHS aren't giving their services to the private sector for free.

Dental treatment is the same
NHS or private

@V0lcan1cV1ew

Dental treatment is the same NHS or private

I havent had an NHS dentist since I left school (in 1987)

I had a PET scan done at a private clinic, paid for by the NHS. Local NHS hospital didn't have the equipment then, they do now

Yeah, this has always been the case. Lots of consultants take on private work on the side. Dodgy and unethical but they do it. You’re not jumping up the NHS waiting list, you’re paying for private healthcare.

My Nan has private health insurance through my deceased Grandad’s pension and she had a skin issue at one point which was honestly driving her nuts. She kept going to the GP to get fobbed off so she decided to go private and they resolved it straight away.

This is a link to the DoH code of conduct for recommended standards of practice for NHS consultants.

www.nhsemployers.org/-/media/Employers/Documents/Pay-and-reward/DH_085195.pdf?la=en&hash=1CEBFC555E758072B7D33D983B41267F72E0C3D1

It states the following which appears to indicate that a private patient should not be able to jump the NHS list - not entirely sure though:
patients referred for an NHS service following a private
consultation or private treatment should join any NHS waiting list
at the same point as if the consultation or treatment were an NHS
service. Their priority on the waiting list should be determined by
the same criteria applied to other NHS patients; and

@QueenOfPain

I totally agree with this statement, Consultants are extremely specialised and have trained and worked years to reach this status. It is only right that they are able to work privately outside of their NHS hours.

I can’t believe people think there is any case at all for restricting clinicians from using their skills outside of their NHS contracted work. If that’s the case, why should anyone be allowed to do any extra work of any kind? They’re humans, free agents.

@Thatisnotwhatisaid

Yeah, this has always been the case. Lots of consultants take on private work on the side. Dodgy and unethical but they do it. You’re not jumping up the NHS waiting list, you’re paying for private healthcare.

My Nan has private health insurance through my deceased Grandad’s pension and she had a skin issue at one point which was honestly driving her nuts. She kept going to the GP to get fobbed off so she decided to go private and they resolved it straight away.

How is it dodgy or unethical?